Ukrainian Couples... What did you bring?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Alla sounds a lot like Lena. She loves to show me the clothes she bought and ask, "How much do you think I spent?" I am never right and she is so proud of how much she saved. Lena worked at a woman's clothing store for about a year and was spending her paycheck there. However, she always bought what was on sale and with the employee discount. She would say, "I bought this entire outfit for $8 with off season discount and employee discount."

It's not so much the having to pay for things that I think bothers the guys. I think its the attitude that we must pay for this because (fill in your reason). I do get tired of feeling like a wallet too, but at least my ####### gets happy. When Lena came, I knew that I was removing the breadwinner from that household. I agreed to pay to help support the family in Ukraine, which was her son and mother. Now it is only her mother, but her son lives with us now and my wife is much happier for that.

I think anyone that brings someone in from another country needs to consider what they are removing from that family and act accordingly. That being said, that does not mean we have an unlimited amount of funds and that we are happily going to fork dollars over to support or pay for whatever comes along. The perception that we are rich Americans in just that, a perception. If we lived in Ukraine, I know that we could live pretty comfortably for under $10,000 a year, but that would be on Ukrainian standards. We would not have a car (not really necessary) and the creature comforts would be different including the amount of space in the home. Basically, it is all relative to where you are, if you are well off or poor.

Alla plays that game also. "How much do you think they cost?" she is always delighted when I guess they were more expensive than she actually paid. Two can play at this game. I know if she has a "Macy's" bag there was some sort of 70% off sale, or something. Otherwise it is Marshall's or TJ Maxx.

I guess I don't feel like a wallet. I think our life is pretty much as we discussed before hand and pretty much how Alla and I see the man/woman/husband/wife thing ought to be. It may not be for everyone or work for everyone. For that matter, my American mother never worked and I never recall any discussion over who was paying for what. Did Mr. Cleaver argue with June Cleaver about who was paying the electric bill? I just don't see the issue in the fact they are from another country. How is that different from being from another state/city/street? They left their home to be with their husband and that may or may not have reprecussions on the family they leave. If she is a 19 year old with no obligations, what is the financial loss to the family? If she is 40 and mother of two and supporting a retired mother in not so good health...different story. I guess I could have held out for a 19 year old, but then....no thanks.

I can vouch for the fact that it is cheaper to support someone there than it is to support someone here. I WISH I could feed Sergey for the amount we send him when he is at school!

[slim 1,525]

Money was tight then and she damned well knew it. I kept telling her that she needed to save some of her money so she/we CAN go to Russia each year, but she never got it.

This is my problem with the situation. If she wants something "extra" like a car, manicures, trips to Russia, etc. - she's going to pay for it. If she has a problem with that, TS.

What's been really interesting for me is all these "must haves" that turn into "don't really needs" once she's able to pay for them. She had no problem spending my money on things like cosmetics but once she had to pay for them herself, all the sudden she didn't need them anymore. She became really thrifty and even stopped buying some things entirely. Her "beauty budget" has been cut in half since it's her responsibility now.

I am not going to give up all my honey for the time it takes to stand in line at Moneygram once a month.

And I'm not going to pay "extra" for honey that's supposed to be free.

I was really not much more than a wallet with a ####### attached.

My wife was used to that treatment in Russia so coming here was kind of a surprise for her. "What do you mean that ####### doesn't shoot out money? Why it doesn't work like in Russia, Korea or Japan? ####### supposed to shoot money!"

I get the satisfaction of "outsmarting" my woman. Really, Alla says that a man should never get angry or raise his voice at his wife because they are "only women" and they "should not be able to" do anything to upset a big, strong man. To be angered by a woman is to show weakness. Maybe SHE is outsmarting ME, eh?

Sounds like she's got you right where she wants you. But, it also sounds like you're OK with that and that's cool.

she is so proud of how much she saved.

One of the huge differences between men shopping and women shopping. Men think about how much they spent. Women could care less about the cost as long as they "saved" something.

I think our life is pretty much as we discussed before hand and pretty much how Alla and I see the man/woman/husband/wife thing ought to be.

And that's totally cool. I would love it if my wife came here and kept up her end of the bargain. Somewhere along the way she watched a little too much "Real Housewives" or something and determined that she was now entitled to that kind of lifestyle.

Did Mr. Cleaver argue with June Cleaver about who was paying the electric bill?

Nope. But I do remember June working her @$$ off to support the family and not blowing all their extra money going on coffee dates with her friends. She did "her job" while he was doing his.

A big difference too was in those days only the man had to work to provide the type of life they portrayed on that show. Today, that's not necessarily possible since women are so greedy and want their own cars, bigger houses, and nicer things... yet they don't necessarily want to work for them, only have their man provide them.

I just don't see the issue in the fact they are from another country. How is that different from being from another state/city/street?

It's not different at all. Although I hear a lot of "It's not like this in Russia. In Russia, man will be pay for everything."

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

A big difference too was in those days only the man had to work to provide the type of life they portrayed on that show. Today, that's not necessarily possible since women are so greedy and want their own cars, bigger houses, and nicer things... yet they don't necessarily want to work for them, only have their man provide them.

It's not different at all. Although I hear a lot of "It's not like this in Russia. In Russia, man will be pay for everything."

If that were true, there would be websites in Russian advertising "hot American Women" to Russian men and Alla could make a fortune teaching Russian as a second language in the USA. While the theory is that men pay for all that stuff, the FACT is many Russian men are useless, abusive drunks. Given that, and the skewed female to male ratio and the average woman over 30 years old has virtually no chance at any man for more than groping around in her panties...and even then they can get a younger one if they wait a few minutes. I NEVER hear that sh!t. See if she changes her tune in a few years.

I do not know if June Cleaver had coffee dates with her friends. Alla does, but that is what "her money" is for. I suspect June Cleaver had a garter belt and lace thongs under her skirt. No doubt the modern age has produced a lot of unnecessary "must haves" that people have sacrificed their children to achieve or collect. I don't believe all those things are worth two people killing themselves working for.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Gary and Alla

[slim 1,525]

If that were true, there would be websites in Russian advertising "hot American Women" to Russian men and Alla could make a fortune teaching Russian as a second language in the USA. While the theory is that men pay for all that stuff, the FACT is many Russian men are useless, abusive drunks. Given that, and the skewed female to male ratio and the average woman over 30 years old has virtually no chance at any man for more than groping around in her panties...and even then they can get a younger one if they wait a few minutes. I NEVER hear that sh!t. See if she changes her tune in a few years.

Which is why even though I'm not providing "everything" and paying for "her stuff" too...... she's still here.

She likes to tell me how I'm not a man... I like to remind her how there are 48,000 of them younger and just as pretty who would love to have a "horrible man" like me. "Now that you're 30, it's probably about time to trade you in for a new model." She welcomes me to try but I think she knows it's a lot easier for me to get a new one than for her to find a new sucker here. Most guys will pay for it a time or two... but none of them are going to put up with her sh!t for more than a few weeks. It's just not worth it!

I do not know if June Cleaver had coffee dates with her friends. Alla does, but that is what "her money" is for. I suspect June Cleaver had a garter belt and lace thongs under her skirt. No doubt the modern age has produced a lot of unnecessary "must haves" that people have sacrificed their children to achieve or collect. I don't believe all those things are worth two people killing themselves working for.

I don't either, that's why I won't do it.

[belarus1 0]

It seems like my relationship lies somewhere inbetween what slim says and what gary says. I realize Svetlana is going through some challenging times and is having to sort out a lot of things here that she is not used to and Im being as supportive as I can but I am not going to be taken advantage of either.

On a related note to what you were saying about Russian men etc... When we were first married I was repeatedly accused of having sex with the mother of my daughter (very laughable) and also having sex with women at my office (even more laughable) and believe me it was so frustrating of being accused of such things when they were not even remotely true. I dont even know where she was getting it from, she knew where I was 24/7!

After a while she explained to me how men act in Belarus and how all her past relationships the guys were out cheating within a few days. I guess its almost expected for men to have mistresses and the women really cant do anything about it.

She said its common in the workplace for men to touch the women, grab thier a$$ etc... and the women actually kind of like it and think nothing of it. Hmm...maybe Im living in the wrong place

[slim 1,525]

It seems like my relationship lies somewhere inbetween what slim says and what gary says.

Which would put you in your early 40s, no?

I believe the fundamental difference in our situations is Gary has the money to simply say, "sure, honey bun, go ahead and do that" whereas I do not. I don't think it's so much a difference of opinion as it is an economic position in life. I fully expect by the time I'm in my 50s to be able to buy my wife a car and pay cash for things that she wants. All of us, as men, are by very definition pushovers when it comes to making our women satisfied. We'll "pick the battles" that we have to but if we're in a position to not have to, we won't. It's just too much drama to do so. Trust me, if I had the cash, my wife would want for nothing!

The part that my wife doesn't seem to understand is how long it takes to build wealth in this country. She thinks I, at 31, should be able to provide her with the same stuff someone in their 40s or 50s can provide their mail-order wife with. "But she only just show up and he make for her nice house, new car and pay for her go to ze school. Why you can't do like zis, huh? You event not man." When I explain to her that he (and usually his ex wife too) worked their @$$es off for 20+ years to be in that position she starts to get that far off, zoned out look in her eyes. When I explain we too are going to have all that nice stuff after working our @$$es off for the next 20+ years... it looks like she sucked on a lemon. "FOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I not will be do zis! You man, you supposed to make for your wife nice life."

I think the longer she stays here the more and more she realizes, "gosh, maybe my husband does know how it works in America." She was making AWESOME money at a chicken wings and beer joint but up and quit one day because "you waste my money on your stuff." What really happed was now that she was making good money and contributing to the bills properly she saw that I finally had extra money to do what I wanted and "her money" was being used to pay the bills while I was off having fun. She completely ignored the fact that "my money" was paying most of the bills and we were finally "sharing" costs. To her, she was "working so hard" so I could have fun. She refuses to do that anymore and is now back to her old part-time, just making enough to cover her expenses job.

When I remind her that's cool for us to maintain the standard of living we have now but we're not going to grow as fast as she'd like, she talks about working full-time again soon. "But I not gonna work so hard and you waste money." Proving once again that my money is "our money" and her money is her money. And I don't even care about that. Fine. Spend it. Spend it all how you see fit. Just don't b!tch about how we don't have anything nice when you work 14 hours a week.

I've told her time and again, "In 15 or 20 years, if we're still living poor... then you have something to b!tch about. But for now, how bout a warm glass of STFU!"

I realize Svetlana is going through some challenging times and is having to sort out a lot of things here that she is not used to and Im being as supportive as I can but I am not going to be taken advantage of either.

I'm with you on that. I think it's important for her to realize she didn't win the lottery or a scholarship in coming here. She did win the opportunity to work and live a "normal" American life and her efforts are directly proportional to how nice she has it and how much "extra" stuff she gets here.

My wife's bff is putting the finishing touches on the condo she just paid cash for. Bought brand new EVERYTHING to outfit this place and my wife is helping her get stuff set up, decorating, etc. The other day we were there waiting to open the door for the furniture delivery guy, and she was talking about how nice the place was and how she'd like to have something like it. I asked, "how long did she work, full-time, saving all her extra money to get this place? What? Something like three and a half years?"

"NO! She work over five years and so hard."

"See, that's all it takes. Five years and you got it. But since there's TWO of us, we should be able to do it in half the time!"

"I have husband. I not will be work my @$$ off for anytime. Husband supposed to buy for me."

Well, there went that whole lesson.

On a related note to what you were saying about Russian men etc... When we were first married I was repeatedly accused of having sex with the mother of my daughter (very laughable) and also having sex with women at my office (even more laughable) and believe me it was so frustrating of being accused of such things when they were not even remotely true. I dont even know where she was getting it from, she knew where I was 24/7!

After a while she explained to me how men act in Belarus and how all her past relationships the guys were out cheating within a few days. I guess its almost expected for men to have mistresses and the women really cant do anything about it.

She said its common in the workplace for men to touch the women, grab thier a$$ etc... and the women actually kind of like it and think nothing of it. Hmm...maybe Im living in the wrong place

Just an "average" dude here is a superstar over there. If you go to work, don't beat 'em, and are a semi-nice guy, you have your pick of GORGEOUS women and can literally trade them in for a new one whenever they give you grief.

Our wives know this. But the thing is, they know that we know this too. They know that all of their friends know that they hit the jackpot. Sure, they talk a big game and want more nice stuff, but deep down, they know they've hit the motherlode, and they're not going anywhere. My wife's friend that just bought the condo? "Oh, you have such a wonderful and great husband. You so lucky. Even though I have this... I have no husband."

The key is just trying to figure out a way to put up with the bulls#!t. Around here, my wife and I spend a lot of time pursuing our individual interests and doing our own things. Many folks (my family included) think it's weird, but it works for us. She does her stuff, I do mine. I don't see why we need to sit on the couch together every night pretending we're not pissed off in order to say we have a decent marriage. When she's not pissed off... she'll join me in whatever I'm doing. If she is pissed off... I'd rather she not join me!

The permananent message here that everyone seems to be saying is just be "that guy." Be you. Be the guy she married and let her figure out how to fit into that. I remember reading a long time ago that the problem with most marriages was men go into them thinking the woman they married always going to be the same woman. Women think their man is going to change, or worse, that they can change him. The sooner they both figure out they were wrong, the better their marriage will be.

Good luck. And I know this probably isn't the right attitude to have, but there are litearlly 48,000 more waiting to marry you. Bend for this one... but don't break.

[belarus1 0]

wow slim, i think my wife and yours may be sisters! sometimes i am as she says "every slavic womans dream" and at times i am the "diabla" and no woman would want me. i understand she is confused by lots of things here but these manic depressive swings in mood at times have me scared to go home after work because im not sure if jekyll or hyde is waiting for me.

im a very romantic guy and do the flowers, dancing in the living room for no reason type of stuff on a regular basis and she will tell me "no man ever do this for me before" but then she will say "im no better off here than in belarus". im like #######! youre in a nice house, all the food and clothes you ever wanted with lots of things to do at the drop of a hat etc... sometimes i swear she purposely sabotages her happiness.

oh well, like you said, if this doesnt work out there are 48,000 other hot russian chics just waiting for a chance

by the way youre spot on, im 44.

Edited August 25, 2010 by belarus1

[Tnic 5]

Well you're keeping the memories going for me.

I remember when I had to listen to how much better things were in Russia too. I finally decided to nip it in the bud. "If it's so great over there then why don't you go back to Russia?" She never had a response for that one and things would quiet down for a awhile.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I never get the "things are better in Ukraine" She knows I know better. I spend our time there, a lot of it, fixing things in our flat which have been broken since 1956. Other than some of the local food being better... Theatre is cheaper, so are manicures. Pretty much that is the end of the list. She knows it, I know it and she knows I know it.

I work with all men basically so I never get the accusations of doing something at work with women. I haven't spoken to my ex wife in many years and even then only briefly and I couldn't even tell you her address or phone number and if I said waht state she lived in it would be a guess. I steadfastly refused to discuss my life in Odessa before I met Alla. Period. I do not ask her about her life before she met me, whatever she wants to volunteer is fine. I volunteer nothing. I showed her my flat, introduced her to my former landlord, showed her around the places I knew in Odessa and that is it. She used to ask about "the women" but hasn't for some time. I am not going there. I spend all my spare time with her here, and since my job is basically part time, that is a lot of time I am with her or doing things for her. She knows I couldn't slip another woman in edgewise.

Yes, it is true FSU men are very bold and "grabby" and yes, for the most part women accept it as a compliment. They may "object" and tell them to keep their hands to themselves, but then call their girlfriends and tell them some guy just grabbed their @ss..."I still got it, Oxana!"

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Alla related a story from her trip this spring. Her and her friend, Natasha, were approached at the bus stop by a "completely drunk and bad smelling man" He offered to take them home, give them wine and vodka and "make love" to them with his big package and even showed them goods, right there at the bus stop. While they said they were definitely impressed. they just couldn't accept his gracious offer at the moment. (she said it actually resembled the tail of a piglet) He staggered off wagging the worm at other women...bait, I guess. Natasha says "Alla, please, can you find ME a man in the USA?" BUT Alla couldn't wait to tell me how she was STILL attracting the men at her advanced age!

Edited August 25, 2010 by Gary and Alla

[slim 1,525]

she is confused by lots of things here but these manic depressive swings in mood at times have me scared to go home after work because im not sure if jekyll or hyde is waiting for me.

My wife's been here almost four years and I still see them. However, they're much fewer and farther between. I figure on a long enough timeline, they'll disappear completely.

I used to think she was bipolar or maybe had PMDD or something like that but the more I'd overhear on the phone or talk with her friends the more I realized most of it was just an act to let me know she was upset or disappointed over something. I swear there's a three-year-old trapped in her 30-year-old body. I've seen her pout more times than my little niece. She'll cross her arms, put that nose way up in the air and sit in silence - if I'm lucky. If I'm not lucky... well, it doesn't matter who's around, it's time for a temper tantrum.

The good news is eventually she'll grow out of it. Don't beat yourself up over trying to guess which one you're waking up to or walking in on. It's a crapshoot. Be you and let her deal with it. Eventually she'll get tired of being that crazy person and start being sane more often. The worst thing you can do is feed into it. Although (and at risk of a TOS violation) you can sometimes f#@k the crazy one right out, exorcism style, but that too is a crapshoot. You may just empower the deamon! Use at your own risk!

sometimes i swear she purposely sabotages her happiness.

I think a lot of the old "Soviet training" taught them to never let too much of themselves go, especially with a man. So what if she has a nice man? So what if she has a nice car? So what if everything in her life is perfect? It's all going to go away someday so she better not get too attached to it.

If you can just maintain that steady course of being "that guy" or as Gary says, "her rock" then eventually she'll start letting herself go. It's hard not to! Nobody wants to be unhappy forever and eventually she'll see that. I'd say right around three years into it for us it was like she just woke up one day and was all serious about "our family." It will happen someday. (It'll also swing back to "I'm CRAZY!" but that'll go away quicker as you go along.)

by the way youre spot on, im 44.

It's not rocket surgery. Things in the US work a certain way and when we figure that out... we're all a little bit better off.

"If it's so great over there then why don't you go back to Russia?" She never had a response for that one and things would quiet down for a awhile.

I say that to my wife and she says, "I will." So I say, "Go then." She says, "I'm going." I say, "well then go." She says...

..... and then it turns into this scene from Waynes World. (Except she never leaves!)

but then call their girlfriends and tell them some guy just grabbed their @ss..."I still got it, Oxana!"

What gets me is American girls do the same thing... except you're fired and/or sued too.

He staggered off wagging the worm at other women...bait, I guess.

That's my "power move!" I've long sealed the deal like that. He got that from me!

Natasha says "Alla, please, can you find ME a man in the USA?" BUT Alla couldn't wait to tell me how she was STILL attracting the men at her advanced age!

That's the thing. My wife knows she's still got it and men still want her. But, she also knows if she's out of here... her friends will pick up her slack real quick!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

My wife's been here almost four years and I still see them. However, they're much fewer and farther between. I figure on a long enough timeline, they'll disappear completely.

I used to think she was bipolar or maybe had PMDD or something like that but the more I'd overhear on the phone or talk with her friends the more I realized most of it was just an act to let me know she was upset or disappointed over something. I swear there's a three-year-old trapped in her 30-year-old body. I've seen her pout more times than my little niece. She'll cross her arms, put that nose way up in the air and sit in silence - if I'm lucky. If I'm not lucky... well, it doesn't matter who's around, it's time for a temper tantrum.

The good news is eventually she'll grow out of it. Don't beat yourself up over trying to guess which one you're waking up to or walking in on. It's a crapshoot. Be you and let her deal with it. Eventually she'll get tired of being that crazy person and start being sane more often. The worst thing you can do is feed into it. Although (and at risk of a TOS violation) you can sometimes f#@k the crazy one right out, exorcism style, but that too is a crapshoot. You may just empower the deamon! Use at your own risk!

I think a lot of the old "Soviet training" taught them to never let too much of themselves go, especially with a man. So what if she has a nice man? So what if she has a nice car? So what if everything in her life is perfect? It's all going to go away someday so she better not get too attached to it.

If you can just maintain that steady course of being "that guy" or as Gary says, "her rock" then eventually she'll start letting herself go. It's hard not to! Nobody wants to be unhappy forever and eventually she'll see that. I'd say right around three years into it for us it was like she just woke up one day and was all serious about "our family." It will happen someday. (It'll also swing back to "I'm CRAZY!" but that'll go away quicker as you go along.)

It's not rocket surgery. Things in the US work a certain way and when we figure that out... we're all a little bit better off.

I say that to my wife and she says, "I will." So I say, "Go then." She says, "I'm going." I say, "well then go." She says...

..... and then it turns into this scene from Waynes World. (Except she never leaves!)

What gets me is American girls do the same thing... except you're fired and/or sued too.

That's my "power move!" I've long sealed the deal like that. He got that from me!

That's the thing. My wife knows she's still got it and men still want her. But, she also knows if she's out of here... her friends will pick up her slack real quick!

I can say Alla had a bit of the manic/depressive act at first, but it is long gone. She has been here two years and it has been gone for quite a while. Home is my favorite place to go. I came home on Tuesday and found her out back in a bikini. Makes you kinda forget all the ....whatever, I already forgot.

I think the standoffish stuff is definitely cultural and Alla has said that she couldn't just "show me" all her feelings. Just in case. Yep, just be there, just be "steady Eddie".

I have to say, Slim, I never tried that technique with the ladies. Silly me. Alla thinks it is completely stupid that women in the US make all this nonsense over sexual harrassment. She always considered it a benefit, it meant she could get something she wanted.