U.S. Lags World in Grasp of Genetics and Acceptance of Evolution

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I used to listen to the Doctor Laura show and frankly, she might call herself a christian but if she's anything in real life like she is on her show I'd dispute that.

She is, on the surface at any rate, the typical sort of religious fundamentalist that gives christians in the US a bad name. What's interesting is how the christianity those sort of people practice seems totally unlike and completely counter to the philosophy of christianity. Not so much christianity IMO, but rather a bastardised form of judaism.

I'm glad to hear Scott & Lai explaining his views - and for the most part I agree. Both science and religion answer fundamentally different questions - science, which answers the "how" does not and cannot explain the "why", which is the real value of religion.

On evolution I still disagree - mainly because even if you accept the "how" that animals (the lower orders) evolved, it seems unreasonable to dispense with that same basis of reasoning for humanity. That represents a fundamental split between reason and superstition that many are not willing to cross. I think perhaps, the reason for that is that it gives the impression that there might not be any absolute answers - although again science cannot really arrive at that conclusion as it tests the "how" and not the "why".

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

What's interesting is how the christianity those sort of people practice seems totally unlike and completely counter to the philosophy of christianity. Not so much christianity IMO, but rather a bastardised form of judaism.

When someone announces to me "I'm a Christian". I check for my wallet. The biggest scumbags I've ever met would throw out the "I'm a Christian" line right away. If I don't ask you what religion you are I don't want to know.

[chri'stina 190]

the only problem is.. taking the bible too serious has several problems.. do you believe all what leviticus says? so it's ok and God wants us to have slaves? stone hookers and whatnot? do you honestly believe that in the end of time 6 horsemen will appear flying in the sky dropping pests on us?

so, how can one part of the Bible be 'acceptable' and not the other.. in this case.. either all the Bible is right, or all the Bible is Wrong.. I don't think God would like a half-arsed job of what he said..

....

I don't want to go into a whole religious debate about every aspect of Christianity/the bible but I do want to address this. This argument is always used about Leviticus and the law of the old testament to try to make Christians look dumb. But if someone has read the bible or atleast has looked over a summary or timeline, they would know why Leviticus was written and would also know why Christians do not follow the old Law. The law was put in place in the old testatement. It was written as a way for man to atone for their sins, to stay try to stay holy, and to realize how imperfect they are. No one could keep the law 100%. And throughout all this is the prophecies of the Messiah who would be the atonement for our sins finally, who would be a perfect and would fulfill the law(promise). There are so many resources to look at that would explain this. The issue then becomes whether someone believes anything in the bible or not. That is fine, and people can decide for themselves. But the argument about the old laws to make christians look stupid is not a valid argument when said by those who don't even know the story of the bible. It is the difference between the old and new convenants (testaments) that people don't know about when they say this.

http://members.aol.com/ludiebell/Understan...theoldvsnew.htm

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Arla...n/fulfilled.htm (found this even though an islam answers site, but written by a christian I assume)

Edited August 14, 2006 by stina&suj

[incanada1234 0]

how hypocritical to question a scientific theory yet blindly follow what is said in a book that has absolutely no proof whatsoever that what it says has actually happened.

you never cease to amaze me

Are you saying none of the events, people, or places in the Bible can be proven? Because I would so DEARLY love to prove you wrong.

Please do prove me wrong!

Ok, what would you like to know?

Personally, I have no problem at all with the Big Bang, and I could even give some room for the possibility of some form of evolution of animals, but definitely not the evolution of humans. I do take the Bible very seriously, and believe that it is in fact the very word of God, though transmitted through the language styles of the human writers.

I don't see anything in Scripture that necessarily conflicts with the Big Bang Theory. I think the biggest objection that some Christians have is with the age of the Earth; they believe that the Earth is about 6,000 years old, or at most up to perhaps 15,000 years old. This is mainly arrived at by adding up the ages of the patriarchs from Adam to Abraham. The problem is, the Bible never does this...no total figure is given. Also, the phrase "begat ___" does not necessarily refer to a father siring a son, but can also refer to descendants much further down the line; so there can in fact be large gaps in the timeline. It is also claimed that the word for "day" in Genesis 1 can only mean a 24 hour day, but that isn't true. In fact, the same word is used in Genesis 2 to refer to the entire period of Creation. So, it is certainly possible that far longer periods of time are being referred to.

I think the Big Bang fits quite nicely in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." The rest of the chapter really is not about the creation of the Universe, but about the creation and development of the Earth. And the way it is written, it fits very well with the current understanding of how a planet in a new solar system forms, if it is understood that the observer in the narrative is placed where the Spirit is, i.e., hovering over the surface of the water. This even accounts for the appearance of the Sun, Moon, and stars on the fourth day. That section is not so much talking about the moment chronologically when those objects were created (that I believe is part of Genesis 1:1), but is mainly giving the functions they serve from our perspective. It is at this point that the astronomical objects, which were there already (the light source in Genesis 1:3) became visible as distinct points of light.

And I do think there is room for evolution of some sort in the text of Genesis 1. God says, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds...," possibly referring to natural processes being used for the creation of animals. However, the case with Man is different. It is not the earth bringing forth Man, but God Himself creates Man, not from previously existing animal species, but from the "dust of the Earth"

I don't believe that there are necessary conflicts between science and the Bible. The problem comes when either is used to answer questions that they can't or don't answer. Science cannot answer questions such as the origin of life itself or the meaning of life (42??), and the Bible does not answer questions such as the precise mechanisms that He used in creating the Universe.

I like your post, Scott.

I used to listen to the Doctor Laura show and frankly, she might call herself a christian but if she's anything in real life like she is on her show I'd dispute that.

I could say the same about you.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

the only problem is.. taking the bible too serious has several problems.. do you believe all what leviticus says? so it's ok and God wants us to have slaves? stone hookers and whatnot? do you honestly believe that in the end of time 6 horsemen will appear flying in the sky dropping pests on us?

so, how can one part of the Bible be 'acceptable' and not the other.. in this case.. either all the Bible is right, or all the Bible is Wrong.. I don't think God would like a half-arsed job of what he said..

....

I don't want to go into a whole religious debate about every aspect of Christianity/the bible but I do want to address this. This argument is always used about Leviticus and the law of the old testament to try to make Christians look dumb. But if someone has read the bible or atleast has looked over a summary or timeline, they would know why Leviticus was written and would also know why Christians do not follow the old Law. The law was put in place in the old testatement. It was written as a way for man to atone for their sins, to stay try to stay holy, and to realize how imperfect they are. No one could keep the law 100%. And throughout all this is the prophecies of the Messiah who would be the atonement for our sins finally, who would be a perfect and would fulfill the law(promise). There are so many resources to look at that would explain this. The issue then becomes whether someone believes anything in the bible or not. That is fine, and people can decide for themselves. But the argument about the old laws to make christians look stupid is not a valid argument when said by those who don't even know the story of the bible. It is the difference between the old and new convenants (testaments) that people don't know about when they say this.

http://members.aol.com/ludiebell/Understan...theoldvsnew.htm

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Arla...n/fulfilled.htm (found this even though an islam answers site, but written by a christian I assume)

What about Jesus stance on divorce? The law of Moses allowed for a man to divorce his wife but Jesus explained to the Pharisees the law was written because of the hardness in their hearts. Can we not also follow that logic and say that the story of Creation was written in a way that the Jews could understand and not how it actually took place? The Pharisees constantly tested Jesus because much of what he said in their eyes was a contradiction to the old commandments, but Jesus explains and demonstrates that what was commanded before was not really coming from God, but from man.

They said to him, "Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?" He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. Matt 19:7-8

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I could say the same about you.

You could. Although I consider myself to be rather more humanistic than Dr Laura - who uses her radio show to plug her political views, telling suicidal, desperate women and underage girls that they should not "flush their babies down the toilet".

Similarly when her mother was found dead, and initial reports suggested she'd been the victim of a violent murder, 'caring, compassionate' Dr Laura didn't shed a tear. She did however make very clear that it was her mother who had chosen to 'alienate her family' and that was the reason that they were estranged for many years.

I don't doubt her religious faith - I do think that like many others she fails to understand the basic philosophy behind christianity.

[incanada1234 0]

I could say the same about you.

You could. Although I consider myself to be rather more humanistic than Dr Laura - who uses her radio show to plug her political views, telling suicidal, desperate women and underage girls that they should not "flush their babies down the toilet".

Similarly when her mother was found dead, and initial reports suggested she'd been the victim of a violent murder, 'caring, compassionate' Dr Laura didn't shed a tear. She did however make very clear that it was her mother who had chosen to 'alienate her family' and that was the reason that they were estranged for many years.

I don't doubt her religious faith - I do think that like many others she fails to understand the basic philosophy behind christianity.

She's telling women not to flush their babies down the toilet?? OH THE HORROR!! That rotten b*tch!

If my dad died a violent murder, I wouldn't cry either. Just because they're your parents doesn't mean you HAVE to love them. It took me 21 years to realize that.

[danae 0]

how hypocritical to question a scientific theory yet blindly follow what is said in a book that has absolutely no proof whatsoever that what it says has actually happened.

you never cease to amaze me

Are you saying none of the events, people, or places in the Bible can be proven? Because I would so DEARLY love to prove you wrong.

Please do prove me wrong!

Ok, what would you like to know?

Well I would like to know which of the events, people or places in the bible can be proven, and how, like you said you were going to prove to us.

[Ban Hammer 13,335]

You could. Although I consider myself to be rather more humanistic than Dr Laura - who uses her radio show to plug her political views, telling suicidal, desperate women and underage girls that they should not "flush their babies down the toilet".

so um what's so bad about that? should they flush their babies down the toilet?

If my dad died a violent murder, I wouldn't cry either. Just because they're your parents doesn't mean you HAVE to love them. It took me 21 years to realize that.

and it took me many more years to realize that you only get issued one set of parents.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

She's telling women not to flush their babies down the toilet?? OH THE HORROR!! That rotten b*tch!

If my dad died a violent murder, I wouldn't cry either. Just because they're your parents doesn't mean you HAVE to love them. It took me 21 years to realize that.

It's not as much what she says as how she says it. She shows little, if any regard for the feelings of the people who call in, which you might say is the fault of the caller. Unfortunately many of those people are naive or desperate - as anyone would be who calls a complete stranger for advice about a major personal issue (the switchboard of The Samaritans is jammed with calls by similar people)

For context, I don't get on particularly well with my mother - the result of many years of mental illness. I don't believe in perpetuating negativity in my life, its not healthy for one thing; and for another you can't choose your parents.

In any case, aren't you supposed to forgive? Doesn't say anywhere you have to forget..

[pedroh 21]

but again.. we live in a Universe full of probability.. what IF the big bang were true? historically in these major scientifical breakthroughs vs. religion/the church.. science has prevailed... so.. what if? are you gonna deny the facts and still say that the good book is the true? on the other hand.. scientists wouldn't have a problem accepting that the universe has always existed and was created by a multidimensional powerful being (yeh, quantum physics think of this as a probable theory),,

again.. I sometimes feel humans defend the creationism not that much because it's 'right' or 'cannot be proved wrong'.. but rather to maintain our 'divine' status quo as special creatures from God, rather than 'another' life form evolved

[Mirorgate 0]

She's telling women not to flush their babies down the toilet?? OH THE HORROR!! That rotten b*tch!

If my dad died a violent murder, I wouldn't cry either. Just because they're your parents doesn't mean you HAVE to love them. It took me 21 years to realize that.

It's not as much what she says as how she says it. She shows little, if any regard for the feelings of the people who call in, which you might say is the fault of the caller. Unfortunately many of those people are naive or desperate - as anyone would be who calls a complete stranger for advice about a major personal issue (the switchboard of The Samaritans is jammed with calls by similar people)

For context, I don't get on particularly well with my mother - the result of many years of mental illness. I don't believe in perpetuating negativity in my life, its not healthy for one thing; and for another you can't choose your parents.

In any case, aren't you supposed to forgive? Doesn't say anywhere you have to forget..

Indeed. Many "Christians" (in quotes because the calling of and actions of are at times diametrically opposed) forget that in the NT it is written that when Christ returns.. out of his mouth will come a 2 edged sword. It cuts both ways. and yes that is figurative, and simbolic writting... as if we don't have hyperbole and similies in language

Anf yes, I question my faith and my religion all the time. "Prove all things"... as in test, enquire, check, analyze... QUESTION.

Love is blind

blind faith

blind dog peein

if you dont use help or guides... you run into things.

[danae 0]

but again.. we live in a Universe full of probability.. what IF the big bang were true? historically in these major scientifical breakthroughs vs. religion/the church.. science has prevailed... so.. what if? are you gonna deny the facts and still say that the good book is the true? on the other hand.. scientists wouldn't have a problem accepting that the universe has always existed and was created by a multidimensional powerful being (yeh, quantum physics think of this as a probable theory),,

again.. I sometimes feel humans defend the creationism not that much because it's 'right' or 'cannot be proved wrong'.. but rather to maintain our 'divine' status quo as special creatures from God, rather than 'another' life form evolved

I firmly believe that this is true. Some people just can not fathom the idea that we are just another species of animal. We eat, we poo, we sleep. I for one am not ashamed to be part of the animal kingdom- heck if I had a choice, human would not be the form I would take.

[pedroh 21]

but again.. we live in a Universe full of probability.. what IF the big bang were true? historically in these major scientifical breakthroughs vs. religion/the church.. science has prevailed... so.. what if? are you gonna deny the facts and still say that the good book is the true? on the other hand.. scientists wouldn't have a problem accepting that the universe has always existed and was created by a multidimensional powerful being (yeh, quantum physics think of this as a probable theory),,

again.. I sometimes feel humans defend the creationism not that much because it's 'right' or 'cannot be proved wrong'.. but rather to maintain our 'divine' status quo as special creatures from God, rather than 'another' life form evolved

I firmly believe that this is true. Some people just can not fathom the idea that we are just another species of animal. We eat, we poo, we sleep. I for one am not ashamed to be part of the animal kingdom- heck if I had a choice, human would not be the form I would take.

i know.. I'd be a Liger

[incanada1234 0]

In any case, aren't you supposed to forgive? Doesn't say anywhere you have to forget..

You can still forgive and yet not cry at a parent's death. It doesn't make you a bad person.

Well I would like to know which of the events, people or places in the bible can be proven, and how, like you said you were going to prove to us.

Unfortunately sweetheart, I wasn't talking to you.