The poor get poorer and deserve to

[Jenn! 918]

We try everything to get em on their feet but they are just stupid and can't see past 24 hours into the future.

I don't think it's fair to say that they're stupid. I agree with the part about being short-sighted though. I've found that people who grow up in poverty often have this attitude like what good is it to die with money in the bank.

This doesn't really apply to your kids though - I'm presuming they didn't grow up in poverty.

[Nina~ 431]

I often wonder about trying to find such a kid and give them a chance. I have thrown enough money away on my own kids.

I first set my son up in business in the UK. Two weeks later he sold it all and bought a nice car. Three weeks later he sold that and bought a mini for £25. Three hours after that it broke down and he abandoned it at the side of the road. My dad gave him a car the day after he passed his test. He got all his friends in and they drove to the seaside and got drunk. He was banned from driving 2 days after he passed his test and the car had a blown up engine and was scrapped.

Your son has found a way of making his living, i.e dad & grandpa. It has worked for him so far and it looks like he has gotten comfortable with it. Imo, you are doing your kids a great disservice by bailing them out instead of letting them learn from their mistakes.

[Captain Oates 911]

Actually - here is a thought:

Do you think it's possible for the parents to be emotionally derailed by their kids behaviour and through no fault of their own ?

Instead of kicking around the world as an expat and tormented with worry over the mess my kids are making of their lives, perhaps I would be settled in the Dales and proud of the way my kids were doing (not just money wise). My pal lives in Harrogate and his daughter has just BOUGHT HIM a Lexus

I can't get my head around that concept

[Gemmie 142]

I agree with Nina.

I knew someone at university that had a shopping addiction and would spend thousands of pounds hitting the shops (not cheap ones, either) and then when she ran out of money, she would cry to her parents, and they would give her some money or pay off the debt. One time, her mother paid off the debt and then gave her an extra few hundred to feel better! She never ended up graduating with us in the end, she had to hang on for an extra year. What I found interesting though was that her father recently got busted for not paying taxes on his business, and now has to move back to Ireland because he's bankrupt.

We learn what we see.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Instead of kicking around the world as an expat and tormented with worry over the mess my kids are making of their lives, perhaps I would be settled in the Dales and proud of the way my kids were doing (not just money wise).

Ummmm, you are taking me with you, right? I thought that was the plan...

Fiddlesticks, did I say that out loud?

[Krys & Nova 2]

I do agree that wasters are everywhere, but I think the problem start in the home.

If you bring up your child teaching them that you will ALWAYS bail them out no matter the cost, they do not learn self reliance and control. I think the values in today’s society are completely backwards. Children have a sense of entitlement that we as the parent have taught them. You cannot expect and child to learn boundaries if we do not teach them any. My oldest bother has 4 children and NONE of them are wasteful, why, because I my brother taught them boundaries....

My oldest niece and I went on a shopping spree in NYC. She had a certain amount of money that she earned throughout the year and I told my spending limit, she made very wise decisions with her money and also made wise decision with the money I was spending on her. When the money was done, that was it... She tried to convince to spend a little more, but once I told her the money was done and she knew this going on the shopping spree, I continued instilling limits and boundaries. If I had just given in and continued shopping with her, what would she have learnt? She would have learnt that even though I have a certain amount of money I can continue to spend what I don’t have. Instead she learnt; I have no more money, I stop there.

Children learn from their parents. If we are failing to teach the correct tools they need in life, what chance do they really have? You cannot blame the children waster for being taught to waist.

[Captain Oates 911]

Your son has found a way of making his living, i.e dad & grandpa. It has worked for him so far and it looks like he has gotten comfortable with it. Imo, you are doing your kids a great disservice by bailing them out instead of letting them learn from their mistakes.

Thats the theory, but in practise some people cannot learn. If they could, they would be on their feet now.

Some alcoholics get to the turning point and see the light - but just as many keep going down and die.

I know that bailing him out wont help - just like when we give beggars the price of a sandwich; but when it gets to the stage that they are dying, do we turn away because our political rhetoric tells us that hard love will work this time, or do we see to their immediate needs.

Only someone who has turned away, and seen the hard love fail, and seen them die, can answer this.

[Nina~ 431]

Thats the theory, but in practise some people cannot learn. If they could, they would be on their feet now.

Some alcoholics get to the turning point and see the light - but just as many keep going down and die.

I know that bailing him out wont help - just like when we give beggars the price of a sandwich; but when it gets to the stage that they are dying, do we turn away because our political rhetoric tells us that hard love will work this time, or do we see to their immediate needs.

Only someone who has turned away, and seen the hard love fail, and seen them die, can answer this.

I truly empathize with you because I have heard my parents say plenty of times "But she is my daughter!! I can't just abandon her"

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Thats the theory, but in practise some people cannot learn. If they could, they would be on their feet now.

Some alcoholics get to the turning point and see the light - but just as many keep going down and die.

I know that bailing him out wont help - just like when we give beggars the price of a sandwich; but when it gets to the stage that they are dying, do we turn away because our political rhetoric tells us that hard love will work this time, or do we see to their immediate needs.

Only someone who has turned away, and seen the hard love fail, and seen them die, can answer this.

This. I can't turn away, even when I want to. I was in a situation last year when others around me encouraged me to be tough, tougher than I was comfortable with being. I stuck to my guns and attacked the problem with compassion and constructive behaviour. Now, one year on, not only am I proud of the way that I acted, I impressed everyone around me with my dignity and how I stuck to my principles. I have no hatred for the person despite what they did to me, and instead have a heart filled with patience and love. I'd rather be a little soft than regret anything I did.

[Gemmie 142]

Only someone who has turned away, and seen the hard love fail, and seen them die, can answer this.

It wasn't because I had turned away, but my mother committed suicide because she felt alone with her problems. I don't ever advocate leaving someone who has behaved suicidal to deal with their own mess. But I don't think everyone would kill themselves once they've reached rock bottom and then realised that only they have the way out.

That's why I asked what you thought would happen if you didn't bail him out any more. Do you think he would actually take his own life? Or do you think that he would realise that he needs to pick himself up?

[Peikko 1,575]

Thats the theory, but in practise some people cannot learn. If they could, they would be on their feet now.

Some alcoholics get to the turning point and see the light - but just as many keep going down and die.

I know that bailing him out wont help - just like when we give beggars the price of a sandwich; but when it gets to the stage that they are dying, do we turn away because our political rhetoric tells us that hard love will work this time, or do we see to their immediate needs.

Only someone who has turned away, and seen the hard love fail, and seen them die, can answer this.

Have you tried any kind of mental evaluation? It sounds as though he has some serious issues. One does not consider suicide simply because one is finding it difficult to pay the bills, it's a result of other much deeper problems than that. Whether it is possible to do anything about it though, that is tough and I can totally appreciate that simply watching your own child self destruct isn't funny and just saying no to him when he has his financial crisis is not going to change the situation for the better.

[Captain Oates 911]

I do agree that wasters are everywhere, but I think the problem start in the home.

If you bring up your child teaching them that you will ALWAYS bail them out no matter the cost, they do not learn self reliance and control. I think the values in today’s society are completely backwards. Children have a sense of entitlement that we as the parent have taught them. You cannot expect and child to learn boundaries if we do not teach them any. My oldest bother has 4 children and NONE of them are wasteful, why, because I my brother taught them boundaries....

My oldest niece and I went on a shopping spree in NYC. She had a certain amount of money that she earned throughout the year and I told my spending limit, she made very wise decisions with her money and also made wise decision with the money I was spending on her. When the money was done, that was it... She tried to convince to spend a little more, but once I told her the money was done and she knew this going on the shopping spree, I continued instilling limits and boundaries. If I had just given in and continued shopping with her, what would she have learnt? She would have learnt that even though I have a certain amount of money I can continue to spend what I don’t have. Instead she learnt; I have no more money, I stop there.

Children learn from their parents. If we are failing to teach the correct tools they need in life, what chance do they really have? You cannot blame the children waster for being taught to waist.

Well isn't that perfect ?

Bully for those who get dealt a good hand and believe it's all down to them.

But what about these families that have two kids and one goes one way and the other goes the other and they were treated and trained and brought up identically ?

What happened there?

Explanation required....

I was in my council house and I sat in the loft space until 3am every night for 5 years to get my qualifications

I have never smoked, never had cannabis - not even one - not a drunk and didn't fool around. I showed my kids maths and English and how to save and plan and to look at the other kids who were failing and to do the opposite.

They never heard swearing in the house and they had a good upbringing up with education and what I reckon was a good example of how to try hard from nothing and to achieve.

I get so teed off when I am told that the way they are is my fault.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

I understand what a burden it is to be threatened by another's threats of suicide; thankfully it has not come to pass. Hugs, Gemmie.

[Captain Oates 911]

Have you tried any kind of mental evaluation? It sounds as though he has some serious issues. One does not consider suicide simply because one is finding it difficult to pay the bills, it's a result of other much deeper problems than that. Whether it is possible to do anything about it though, that is tough and I can totally appreciate that simply watching your own child self destruct isn't funny and just saying no to him when he has his financial crisis is not going to change the situation for the better.

It's ironic that if you and I and he were sat having a conversation , you would judge him to be happier and more together and as having a more attractive personality than me. A lot of people who are like this are very 'likeable'. All con men/women for a start.

After talking to him, there is no way you would think he needs psychological evaluation.

If it was just him then fair enough, but I am getting away from the original post that there are hordes of such people and they don't all need psychiatrists. They turn on to the shopping channel etc an spend 30k on silly rings and take om these mortgages etc. They are not all crazy - they are ... what ? irresponsible, stupid , unwise ?

Really I was bemoaning society as a whole and just holding my son up as an example of this malaise.

Every single woman in my daughter's street would fit the general description too so it isn't just my kids. The chemist's shop in my sleepy little village in rural Yorkshire has a plastic sack for drug addicts needles -they empty it twice a day !

Were they all brought up badly ?

Edited July 9, 2010 by saywhat

[Gemmie 142]

Hugs, Maven.

I don't think it's all down to you, Alan.

My dad tells me how proud he is of me, and says he doesn't know where I got it from. He's happy that I'm getting to see the world, more than he ever did. And that I have the ability to one day own my own house, and drive my own car. He also tells me that he has regrets about his parenting, and I tell him that no one is perfect. He was home, he worked full-time cleaning toilets and factories to put food on the table, and he let me make my own decisions. That was the important thing. And yes, whenever my brother needs money or food, he's there to give it to him, whatever the reason.

I don't know WHY exactly kids turn out differently. I'm only 23, I don't know if I even have any idea what it's like to raise children. But I have seen the way people turn out so different, it's not just your kids. My best friend is completely the opposite from her sister, and doesn't know why. It could be a mixture of genetics, upbringing, mindsets, social reasons, culture, the generation. As long as you feel you tried your best, and attempted to give them work ethic and instill values, you've done what you can. I just think that he needs a kick up the ####### to realise that changing his life comes from him, not you. You giving him money to help him is just a bandaid, not a cure.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Gemmie