man released from jail, shoots 2 the next day, then a cop the following day

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Links? I will concede the "glorious summers"

Umm, sorry? Links for what? That I never saw a gun the summer I was 11 at hippie camp?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Is it startling to you that Slim hasn't? Yet your complaint here is that neither I nor Maven have either? If you read back a few pages (before you horned into the thread totally oblivious of what has gone before - as you usually do) you will see that this is exactly what we were asking him for, yet for some strange reason (interesting given a strength of feeling on his part that translated to a good couple hours of posting) he never once offered any specifics other than that his word should be taken as "fact".

I did not complain. Maven did.

You will not provide a link to what you say, because there is none. I will not provide a link because I really don't give a damn if you believe me. I live in Vermont, I can walk down the street with my concealed anytime I want, day or night. The supreme court has ruled, you lost and it doesn't matter if you like it.

And to answer Maven directly...none of the children on holiday for the summer in Lowe's or Costco today saw my gun either. That is why it is called CONCEALED. it is the POINT not to tell people you have one. That way criminals do not know which of us is armed. The risk is all on them....so they go to New York.

I would suggest, Maven, maybe you should wear a sign around your neck declaring "I am against concealed carry of handguns" be my guest.

Umm, sorry? Links for what? That I never saw a gun the summer I was 11 at hippie camp?

I'll take your word for it.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Cool, I'm taking tips on necklaces from Gary. I can die happy now.

I highly doubt there was a single gun on the hippie children's summer camp grounds -- I think the parents would have been very worried. I did learn how to kill a chicken that summer, and we slaughtered sheep as well, so it's not like we were sheltered from life's cycle. We weren't cosseted at all, but guns would NOT have figured into the philosophy of this place.

I have to say, of the four people I know who live in Vermont, none of them own a gun. But then of course I hate guns, right? You honestly have no clue what I think about guns; you might be surprised.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Optometrists?

You are a very egocentric individual was my point, if it can be assumed that all Vermont residents are like that then I wouldn't want to visit/live there.

Of course I don't believe that you are the "typical" personality, but it is interesting to point it out when you try to present Vermont as though it is representative of the US.

Vermont is representative of what the US CAN BE. It puts to lie any attempt to say that gun laws (or lack thereof) are the "cause" of crime. The existence of states with very lenient gunlaws and very low crime rates (and there are many, Vermont is perhaps most extreme) Negates the argument. It puts YOU in the position of admitting that guns are NOT the cause of crime, which you have already done. Thanks.

If other states have stricter gun laws and higher crime rates...my question would be "Why?" Answer THAT and then we can address the root causes of crime. Hint: It will not be as easy as passing another gun law.

[Ban Hammer 13,776]

Cool, I'm taking tips on necklaces from Gary. I can die happy now.

I highly doubt there was a single gun on the hippie children's summer camp grounds -- I think the parents would have been very worried. I did learn how to kill a chicken that summer, and we slaughtered sheep as well, so it's not like we were sheltered from life's cycle. We weren't cosseted at all, but guns would NOT have figured into the philosophy of this place.

I have to say, of the four people I know who live in Vermont, none of them own a gun. But then of course I hate guns, right? You honestly have no clue what I think about guns; you might be surprised.

ok, i'll bite: what do you think about guns?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Cool, I'm taking tips on necklaces from Gary. I can die happy now.

I highly doubt there was a single gun on the hippie children's summer camp grounds -- I think the parents would have been very worried. I did learn how to kill a chicken that summer, and we slaughtered sheep as well, so it's not like we were sheltered from life's cycle. We weren't cosseted at all, but guns would NOT have figured into the philosophy of this place.

I have to say, of the four people I know who live in Vermont, none of them own a gun. But then of course I hate guns, right? You honestly have no clue what I think about guns; you might be surprised.

Maven, I will gladly allow you to project both your experiences onto as many Vermont residents as you choose, just be sure to mention your sample size when you do. We are a state small in population, it is true...but FOUR people? If that is the case, then the FOUR people that were murdered last year would be...oh never mind.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Gary, I was never trying to project my experience of Vermont people onto the general population of my state. I'm not so great a fool as to do that. It is my circle of friends, and they don't feel it's necessary to have a gun. If the majority of adult citizens are gunholders, that's cool. But my mates up there aren't amongst them. I merely mention that the four I know aren't gunholders. YMMV, and it clearly does.

charles, my attitude towards guns is this: I am fine with guns being used for sport. I know many people who do just this and find it a pleasurable pastime. I am not keen on a populace armed for "protection", whether legal or illegal, honest citizen or lowdown dirty criminal. I have several friends who keep guns for protection, and they know my stance on it. It's not something we talk about because we know we will disagree and there's no point to it. As it stands, my viewpoint is not reality in America. I can't say that my opinion is based on anything more than a gut feeling; I can't quite make it work in a way I am totally philosophically at ease with. And I can certainly understand why people think they should have a gun at home, even if I don't agree with it.

See? I can be perfectly reasonable.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Maven, I will gladly allow you to project both your experiences onto as many Vermont residents as you choose, just be sure to mention your sample size when you do. We are a state small in population, it is true...but FOUR people? If that is the case, then the FOUR people that were murdered last year would be...oh never mind.

Number of times I have gone to Costco? Hundreds...

Number of times I regretted not having a gun when shopping Costco? None...

[Ban Hammer 13,776]

Gary, I was never trying to project my experience of Vermont people onto the general population of my state. I'm not so great a fool as to do that. It is my circle of friends, and they don't feel it's necessary to have a gun. If the majority of adult citizens are gunholders, that's cool. But my mates up there aren't amongst them. I merely mention that the four I know aren't gunholders. YMMV, and it clearly does.

charles, my attitude towards guns is this: I am fine with guns being used for sport. I know many people who do just this and find it a pleasurable pastime. I am not keen on a populace armed for "protection", whether legal or illegal, honest citizen or lowdown dirty criminal. I have several friends who keep guns for protection, and they know my stance on it. It's not something we talk about because we know we will disagree and there's no point to it. As it stands, my viewpoint is not reality in America. I can't say that my opinion is based on anything more than a gut feeling; I can't quite make it work in a way I am totally philosophically at ease with. And I can certainly understand why people think they should have a gun at home, even if I don't agree with it.

See? I can be perfectly reasonable.

i suppose that line of thinking is acceptable to some, who have a fairly rapid response time from their local law enforcement. out here where i (and quite a few others in "flyover country" live) the response time can be longer than 30 minutes, sometimes 45-60 minutes.

what do you suppose we do during that 30+ minutes for law enforcement to arrive?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Number of times I have gone to Costco? Hundreds...

Number of times I regretted not having a gun when shopping Costco? None...

And...???????

Number of times I have had an abortion? None. Number of times I asked the government to limit someone else's abilty to make that choice? None.

Do you have anything constructive to add? Links maybe? Maven gets upset when you don't, she gets "startled" to be precise.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Actually, I'm pretty mellow at the moment. Could be this beer I'm drinkin'.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

And...???????

Number of times I have had an abortion? None. Number of times I asked the government to limit someone else's abilty to make that choice? None.

Do you have anything constructive to add? Links maybe? Maven gets upset when you don't, she gets "startled" to be precise.

I don't have an issue with lawful holders of concealed weapons permits who treat their weapon with care and respect either, trouble is, that is not always how people treat guns. Sometimes my opinions on a subject have links, sometimes they don't. If you think gun possession makes you "safer" then you are a bit reality challenged. That does not mean that you can't possess a gun and keep yourself safe, or that I don't support your right to have a gun. I have a right to own a gun, I don't particularly want one.

If you must have a link:

A gun in the home is twelve times more likely to result in the death of a household member or visitor than an intruder.

The simple statistical facts create some doubt in my mind about the mentality of those who feel a need to go about armed being precisely the opposite sorts of persons who logically should possess a gun i.e. persons who possess guns with both care and respect. I have never supported banning guns, but it absolutely frightens me to think people who do own them think they make them safer, rather than recognizing simply owning the gun increases the danger to themselves and those they love.

Edited July 11, 2010 by ready4ONE

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

i suppose that line of thinking is acceptable to some, who have a fairly rapid response time from their local law enforcement. out here where i (and quite a few others in "flyover country" live) the response time can be longer than 30 minutes, sometimes 45-60 minutes.

what do you suppose we do during that 30+ minutes for law enforcement to arrive?

Oh here we go again as usual.

If one isn't a gun-totin' Cabella's enthusiast, then one MUST be wrong on the issue of firearms.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Oh here we go again as usual.

If one isn't a gun-totin' Cabella's enthusiast, then one MUST be wrong on the issue of firearms.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I did not complain. Maven did.

You will not provide a link to what you say, because there is none. I will not provide a link because I really don't give a damn if you believe me. I live in Vermont, I can walk down the street with my concealed anytime I want, day or night. The supreme court has ruled, you lost and it doesn't matter if you like it.

And to answer Maven directly...none of the children on holiday for the summer in Lowe's or Costco today saw my gun either. That is why it is called CONCEALED. it is the POINT not to tell people you have one. That way criminals do not know which of us is armed. The risk is all on them....so they go to New York.

I would suggest, Maven, maybe you should wear a sign around your neck declaring "I am against concealed carry of handguns" be my guest.

Now you're not being honest - the fact that you post in the thread indicates that you do care - but you want me to believe that you're right and I'm wrong merely because you say so. Convincing?

Not in the least.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Its a MADHOUSE