man released from jail, shoots 2 the next day, then a cop the following day

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I'm perplexed by this statement; it looks suspiciously like post hoc ergo propter hoc. Just because there are lax gun control laws in Vermont, does that mean that there is a proportionately higher rate of gun ownership?

Well, no, but there is. Vermont has one of the highest per capita firearms ownership rates and hunting license rates in the US. Most people here do own guns, most people here have them (at minimum) in their cars and a surprising number carry them always. it is nearly impossible to get any business done during deer season. Schools close statewide for deer season. It coordinates nicely with Thanksgving and they figure "why bother to turn the lights on"? Oh yeah, we are a very green and clean state also. Sparkling clean actually.

Gary, working off of the premise that I believe that the availability of guns are the only factor that is pertinent in the rates of gun crime is a false assumption. I do not believe that.

Good. That would be wrong.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I will give Gary this -- I'd much rather be in Vermont than Essex.

I find it startling that so many people on VJ are unable or unwilling to show their work.

it isn't "my work", it is facts. Neither will I give you links to prove the sun will rise in the east. I have made it very easy for you to prove me a liar if I am wrong. Wouldn't that make your day? Show me where I am wrong.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The availability of guns has "something" to do with gun crime rates - I have never believed that it is the only factor.

Point is - if you are prepared to make distinctions between the gun crime rates in different parts of the US, you have to do that with the UK as well.

You just repeated what you said - that doesn't add any meaning whatsoever. So what is this "best way" that would be illegal?

I would very much welcome your proving that population density, for example, is the cause of crime. Please, feel free. Then how will you fix it? With a gun law?

Choose the cause you want, compare the various causes within jurisdictions with the same gun laws...I welcome the comparison and explanations.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I don't know Slim - why do you keep repeating yourself when confronted with reasonable requests for information? You apparently want to debate the topic, but you want to provide absolutely no substantive detail with which to do so. What kind of a debate do you feel is possible?

Sure, I totally believe that that is what you meant. And clearly so did everyone else.

Seriously what an absolute crock.

You take it the way you want, as you invariably always do. But I wasn't talking about politics - I was talking about ego and attitude.

Oh. Sorry. Yeah, who wants to live among optomists? Especially ARMED optomists! All that "can do" attitude is tough to take.

You are right, stay where you are. Vermont is Bad, very bad. Stay away!

Edited July 11, 2010 by Gary and Alla

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

it isn't "my work", it is facts. Neither will I give you links to prove the sun will rise in the east. I have made it very easy for you to prove me a liar if I am wrong. Wouldn't that make your day? Show me where I am wrong.

Sigh. Facts, damn facts and, uh, facts? Really, if you asked me to prove a statement I made purporting to be fact-based, I would be MORE than happy to provide links that would back me up. If it's not that hard for me to look them up, why is it so bloody hard for you to post them?

You are right, stay where you are. Vermont is Bad, very bad. Stay away!

Actually, I love Vermont. I just have a very different experience of it than you, perhaps because I'm a tourist when I visit. I spent a summer there once as a child and it was glorious. Never saw a single gun.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I would very much welcome your proving that population density, for example, is the cause of crime. Please, feel free. Then how will you fix it? With a gun law?

Choose the cause you want, compare the various causes within jurisdictions with the same gun laws...I welcome the comparison and explanations.

I'm sure that will be forthcoming at the same time that you provide your in-depth analysis of how the availability of guns in Vermont has a direct impact on the crime rate.

We can misrepresent people's opinions all day long, let me know when you're prepared to be honest. I expect I'll be waiting a while.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I will give Gary this -- I'd much rather be in Vermont than Essex.

I find it startling that so many people on VJ are unable or unwilling to show their work.

Is it startling that neither you nor Madhouse has linked any relationship with firearms availability and crime? Well, you have made no claim that the two are linked, but Madhouse has. He says it has "something" to do with crime (and even puts the "something" in quotes ) but gives no links. Do you find that startling, or only when someone that disagrees with you doesn;t link to references.

For that matter, I am the best source you can link to for gun control laws, so what is the point?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Oh. Sorry. Yeah, who wants to live among optomists? Especially ARMED optomists! All that "can do" attitude is tough to take.

You are right, stay where you are. Vermont is Bad, very bad. Stay away!

Optometrists?

You are a very egocentric individual was my point, if it can be assumed that all Vermont residents are like that then I wouldn't want to visit/live there.

Of course I don't believe that you are the "typical" personality, but it is interesting to point it out when you try to present Vermont as though it is representative of the US.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Is it startling that neither you nor Madhouse has linked any relationship with firearms availability and crime? Well, you have made no claim that the two are linked, but Madhouse has. He says it has "something" to do with crime (and even puts the "something" in quotes ) but gives no links. Do you find that startling, or only when someone that disagrees with you doesn;t link to references.

For that matter, I am the best source you can link to for gun control laws, so what is the point?

Is it startling to you that Slim hasn't? Yet your complaint here is that neither I nor Maven have either? If you read back a few pages (before you horned into the thread totally oblivious of what has gone before - as you usually do) you will see that this is exactly what we were asking him for, yet for some strange reason (interesting given a strength of feeling on his part that translated to a good couple hours of posting) he never once offered any specifics other than that his word should be taken as "fact".

Edited July 11, 2010 by Its a MADHOUSE

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I'm sure that will be forthcoming at the same time that you provide your in-depth analysis of how the availability of guns in Vermont has a direct impact on the crime rate.

We can misrepresent people's opinions all day long, let me know when you're prepared to be honest. I expect I'll be waiting a while.

The availability of guns has no impact on crime in Vermont. How do you impact a rate of .75 per 100,000 population? There is virtually NO crime. There were 11 armed robberies in the STATE in one YEAR. Many people do not even have locks on their doors, they have doorknobs like on a closet. Most people never lock the doors, most would be locked out if they did. We rent our prison space to other states for profit! The local museum leaves a collection pot on a table on the public sidewalk in the state's biggest city and no one steals the money! Anyone can carry a concealed handgun without a lisence. There is no law against being naked but there are no strip clubs. All facts. Hooters went out of business in Burlington. So did McDonald's. I guess I could connect concealed handguns to low interest in fast food...but what would be the point?

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

I don't think I'm actually invested in the argument about linking guns and crime rates, at least not in this thread. I'm more interested in why there is such reluctance to show proof for so-called "facts." And yes, I do find it startling that people don't want to prove stances they are taking.

If I want to know something about gun control laws, I do have other sources, but thanks for offering.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The availability of guns has no impact on crime in Vermont. How do you impact a rate of .75 per 100,000 population? There is virtually NO crime. There were 11 armed robberies in the STATE in one YEAR. Many people do not even have locks on their doors, they have doorknobs like on a closet. Most people never lock the doors, most would be locked out if they did. We rent our prison space to other states for profit! The local museum leaves a collection pot on a table on the public sidewalk in the state's biggest city and no one steals the money! Anyone can carry a concealed handgun without a lisence. There is no law against being naked but there are no strip clubs. All facts. Hooters went out of business in Burlington. So did McDonald's. I guess I could connect concealed handguns to low interest in fast food...but what would be the point?

The State's biggest city has a population of about 40,000.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Optometrists?

Huh, I was not alone in reading that at first.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Sigh. Facts, damn facts and, uh, facts? Really, if you asked me to prove a statement I made purporting to be fact-based, I would be MORE than happy to provide links that would back me up. If it's not that hard for me to look them up, why is it so bloody hard for you to post them?

Actually, I love Vermont. I just have a very different experience of it than you, perhaps because I'm a tourist when I visit. I spent a summer there once as a child and it was glorious. Never saw a single gun.

Links? I will concede the "glorious summers"

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The State's biggest city has a population of about 40,000.

Ok. (actually about 50,000 plus 10,000 college students) but what is the point? All cities should be limited to 40,000 population? Please continue with your thought.

Low population equals low crime...because? Links?

Anything you are willing to point out that does NOT include gus is fine by me. I am with you!