what is the difference between a citizen through naturalization and a citizen through birth?

[engineer21 51]

Another question out of curiosity. Say hypothetically that someone was brought here illegally by the mother as a child. This person was in the US illegally for years and then later found out that biological father is a US citizen. Does that mean this person has always been a natural born USC? So it means there was never any illegal presence all these years?

[antda 13]

Another question out of curiosity. Say hypothetically that someone was brought here illegally by the mother as a child. This person was in the US illegally for years and then later found out that biological father is a US citizen. Does that mean this person has always been a natural born USC? So it means there was never any illegal presence all these years?

Engineer21-Hmmm..Interesting question....(and actually, this might be a true case...will have to look that up...)

Yes...Since the child has a father who is a US citizen....

Then the child is a US Citizen, based on "jus sanguinis" laws...

Lol..Ok..so the father has US Citizenship...No problem...

The child has US Citizenship..No problem....

Lol..The mother....umm.....Is illegal and could get into serious trouble with the USCIS and ICE......Scary.....

Hope this helps....

Ant

[antda 13]

Lol..The above hypothetical situation reminds me of the recent case of the Brazilian mother who had a USC son...And brought the son back to Brazil and then the mother died....And the USC father had to fight for custody and the right to bring his son back to the USA....

(anyone else remember this case?)......What a legal battle that was, indeed!

Thank goodness though, that it worked out well in the end and the son was returned back to the USA...

But yeah, when it comes to multiple citizenships and children...It gets tricky......

Ant

[antda 13]

Ok now here is another hypothetical situation...

Supposingly 2 parents were both US Citizens by naturalization....

Then they decided to leave the USA and have their baby/child in another country...

So is the child a US Citizen via birth abroad or by any other means?

Can the child run for US president when they grow up too?

Just curious.....

Ant

[ValerieA 350]

Wow, we just keep opening up more questions!

I believe that Obama was born in Hawaii, also. I just don't understand why no one seems to be bringing up the "It wouldn't matter anyway" argument.

[antoneya 9]

Ok now here is another hypothetical situation...

Supposingly 2 parents were both US Citizens by naturalization....

Then they decided to leave the USA and have their baby/child in another country...

So is the child a US Citizen via birth abroad or by any other means?

Can the child run for US president when they grow up too?

Just curious.....

Ant

The child is a U.S. Citizen and he can run for president...It doesn't matter how you get your citizenship once you got it, you are a citizen. The ONLY time citizenship by naturalization comes into play is 1. if you are running for US President or 2. Applying for visa to some crazy country like India (the processing time in longer, they do more background check on you and sometime you get very limit time, ie. 6 months vs 1 year or 5 years)

[antda 13]

Wow, we just keep opening up more questions!

I believe that Obama was born in Hawaii, also. I just don't understand why no one seems to be bringing up the "It wouldn't matter anyway" argument.

Val-Lol..We here at VJ like asking and answering questions.. (well, at least I do anyways...lol..)

You're right in saying that "It wouldn't matter anyways", as he is a US Citizen, regardless...

However, Obama is the President. And there are certain rules that make one qualified for such a position here in the USA, which make people want to question things further...

Presidency aside, IT DOESN'T MATTER! As long as he or any other president is doing a good job for the country, then so be it..Who cares where they are really from...lol.....

Really, there are better things to do than to worry about a president's birth certificate.....

Ant

Another hypothetical situation:

Supposingly if a Naturalized US Citizen could become president of the USA.......I wonder what would happen.....hmmm....

Lol.We'd definitely see a lot of immigration-related issues being positively addressed there, amongst other things....

Ant

[antda 13]

The child is a U.S. Citizen and he can run for president...It doesn't matter how you get your citizenship once you got it, you are a citizen. The ONLY time citizenship by naturalization comes into play is 1. if you are running for US President or 2. Applying for visa to some crazy country like India (the processing time in longer, they do more background check on you and sometime you get very limit time, ie. 6 months vs 1 year or 5 years)

Antoneya-Thanks for part of the answer. Ok...So the hypothetical child is a US Citizen....That's good...

Now can they run for US president? Hmmm.....

Interesting info about the other countries too, in terms of how they treat naturalized citizens from other countries.....Is this only for India or for other places too? And don't they do background checks anyways...(heck, even the USCIS does checks...lol...so it's not that uncommon...)

Ant

Edited June 30, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[CaptainPenguin 5]

Another question out of curiosity. Say hypothetically that someone was brought here illegally by the mother as a child. This person was in the US illegally for years and then later found out that biological father is a US citizen. Does that mean this person has always been a natural born USC? So it means there was never any illegal presence all these years?

Here is your definition sir, straight from the department of state... guess it depends of what the dad has been up to.

Through birth abroad to one United States citizen

A person born on or after November 14, 1986, is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true:

• One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person in question was born
• The citizen parent lived at least five years in the United States before the child's birth
• A minimum of two of these five years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.

[antoneya 9]

Antoneya-Thanks for part of the answer. Ok...So the hypothetical child is a US Citizen....That's good...

Now can they run for US president? Hmmm.....

Interesting info about the other countries too, in terms of how they treat naturalized citizens from other countries.....Is this only for India or for other places too? And don't they do background checks anyways...(heck, even the USCIS does checks...lol...so it's not that uncommon...)

Ant

1. Yes they can run for US president because at time of birth, they were born to a US Citizen and they are natural born citizen(again it doesn't matter how his parents got it).

2. India I know has special rules for USC vs Naturalized USC, if you were born in one of the neighbor country, it's even more requirements. Argentina also, I think. Also when you go back to your country of birth as a naturalized USC you always get "special treatment" vs a USC, sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad.

3. Everyone does background check, but for naturalized citizens they do background check in the US and in your place of birth. In my passport on my Indian visa it said "Clearance obtained from Colombo and DC"

[antoneya 9]

Interesting side note: Bruce Lee was a US citizen, he was born in CA while his parents were here on a business trip that's how he was able to come to the US later in his life.

[sachinky 464]

Sach-True...But they became president regardless....

Sach-Countries can give either one or the other....

It's either through birth or naturalization....It's good that the US gives both....

Though one difference between birth and naturalization is that birth is not chosen and naturalization is chosen...

And regardless, both are viewed equally and results in the same...Being a US Citizen, which is what should matter in the end

Lol..US Citizenship by any name or means would smell just as sweet......

Now as for presidency, that's another debate....left to who have a US birthright to pursue such....

But as far as the "jus soli" technicality is concerned...We are all 'born' on US soil when we become US Citizens, no matter how we acquired that citizenship.....

So being literal...all US Citizens have "US Soil" inside of them........Just a thought....

Ant

--Yes, because it IS U.S. soil.

--I see what you're saying. However, I wasn't talking about naturalization. ONLY Natural-BORN citizenship is granted through jus soli and jus sanguinis. Not naturalization which has nothing to do with it. I think you're confusing what I'm saying or you're trying to say somehow naturalization is the same process as natural-born when it's really not. I'm not disputing how YOU personally feel about the process or that you feel 'reborn' in some way.

U.S. grants citizenship through a) BIRTH (BOTH 1. jus sanguine and 2. jus soli--some countries do both and others do only one) AND also through a separate process of b) NATURALIZATION (again, some countries allow you to do this, the US being one, other countries don't). Bear in mind, I'm applying strict political science concepts of citizenship and not how you or I may 'feel' about acquired citizenship. A lot of people simply take up USC because it is convenient for them to do so. Not everybody feels 'reborn' in any manner whatsoever.

[sachinky 464]

Another question out of curiosity. Say hypothetically that someone was brought here illegally by the mother as a child. This person was in the US illegally for years and then later found out that biological father is a US citizen. Does that mean this person has always been a natural born USC? So it means there was never any illegal presence all these years?

Yes. If the biological father has met all the residency requirements, then, in my amateur understanding of the law, the child is considered to be a USC. It think maybe there are some rules about whether the CRBA was filed in a certain period of time. Or may be not. Interesting question, it actually popped into my head the other day.

Ok now here is another hypothetical situation...

Supposingly 2 parents were both US Citizens by naturalization....

Then they decided to leave the USA and have their baby/child in another country...

So is the child a US Citizen via birth abroad or by any other means?

Can the child run for US president when they grow up too?

Just curious.....

Ant

Yes. The child is born to USC. Doesn't matter if the parents are natural-born or naturalized. He/she will be eligible to run for POTUS even if he is born in another country.

Edited June 30, 2010 by sachinky

[sachinky 464]

Another hypothetical situation:

Supposingly if a Naturalized US Citizen could become president of the USA.......I wonder what would happen.....hmmm....

Lol.We'd definitely see a lot of immigration-related issues being positively addressed there, amongst other things....

Ant

The US Constitution would have to be amended first as this is explicitly disallowed. It is assumed that naturalized citizens don't feel the same sort of allegiance to the country as a natural-born citizen would have. There is also often the troubling aspect of 'dual allegiance' which may not be a problem for most civilians but can definitely become a problem for a President during war time.

Edited June 30, 2010 by sachinky

[Advanced Aardvark 82]

hi all

I've been having this discussion with another member regarding US citizens (through birth/ through naturalization) that sort of went off the OP's original question.

Original thread:

http://www.visajourn...22#entry4035522

Can you pitch in your ideas by replying to this thread?

Both are citizens by 'injection'; though one if before birth, and the other is after.