Dual Citizenship and surrendering Ukrainian one

[captainofiron 2]

I go off what actually Gary said, not what you think Gary meant to say..

well you probably know better seeing as you started this topic and have been involved with it since the beginning. oh wait....

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

But you said in your previous post to use the Ukrainian passport to enter.... now you say bury it deep....

You lost something in the translation Pay. For one thing, neither Alla nor the OP's fiancee are US citizens, so the point is purely acedemic for now. I said that Alla will use the Ukrainian passport to enter RUSSIA when she has a US passport. Doing so would avoid her needing a visa. Otherwise she would not need it and would not use it to enter Ukraine...for what reason would she do so? Other than renewing the passport in Ukraine, or for proving her citizenship while we are there (for whatever reason) it would never see the light of day in Ukraine. She enters and leaves Ukraine as a US citizen, just as I do. Problem?

I will repeat the intent again. Alla intends to keep her Ukrainian passport(s) (we still own property in Ukraine so renewing the internal passport is not a problem either) current in the future for TWO purposes, and TWO purposes ONLY. At all other times it will be buried in her sock drawer or deep in her suitcase...

1. To re-establish herself in Ukraine in the event of my death and a decision to return to Ukraine. She would not do so at this time, but she likes to keep options open...me too.

2. To visit Russia and avoid the hassle of a visa.

That is all. There is no other reason to favor a Ukrainian or Russian passport over a US passport.

We also intend to do the same for our sons, however at some point, and not too distant, it is something they will decide for themselves. We will give them the advantages of a good education and two passports and then they can decide where they want to live and if they keep their passports current or not. I have no intention of re-newing Pasha's or Sergey's Ukrainian passports when they are 28 years old, I will leave it to them to decide on that.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

I read the whole post, and it touched a nerve.

Here's the thing, Gary: somebody, who is not a citizen of a certain country (whether it's Ukraine, Russia, or the USA), yet uses a passport of such country falsely identifying them as a citizen, is committing a serious offense.

Who would know about it . . . will it ever come out . . . how many people do this . . . are all questions that do not change the fact. Just because O.J. Simpson got away with killing 2 people and others as well doesn't mean it's safe to do that.

Imagine this: Russian citizen lands in New York City, shows US passport trying to enter. No big deal? Just a slap on the wrist?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I read the whole post, and it touched a nerve.

Here's the thing, Gary: somebody, who is not a citizen of a certain country (whether it's Ukraine, Russia, or the USA), yet uses a passport of such country falsely identifying them as a citizen, is committing a serious offense.

Who would know about it . . . will it ever come out . . . how many people do this . . . are all questions that do not change the fact. Just because O.J. Simpson got away with killing 2 people and others as well doesn't mean it's safe to do that.

Imagine this: Russian citizen lands in New York City, shows US passport trying to enter. No big deal? Just a slap on the wrist?

They are your nerves, Bob. You can get over it...or not. Imagine if the person landing in New York is a Russian AND US Citizen and produces a US passort. Am I upset? No. Why would I be?

So..a US citizen arrives in Ukraine and produces a US passport, are you upset? You only become upset when the US citizen also has a passport issued by Ukraine in her sock drawer? Is there anything else in her sock drawer that uspets you Bob?

How is any of this related to homocide? How is it related to false passports? Why are you upset over imagined crimes?

Bottom line Bob...it really doesn't matter if you like it. It can be done and Ukraine is not making any issues of Ukrainian born, naturalized US citizens who also have Ukrainian passports because that was not the intent of the law and they really don't care.

[captainofiron 2]

I read the whole post, and it touched a nerve.

Here's the thing, Gary: somebody, who is not a citizen of a certain country (whether it's Ukraine, Russia, or the USA), yet uses a passport of such country falsely identifying them as a citizen, is committing a serious offense.

Who would know about it . . . will it ever come out . . . how many people do this . . . are all questions that do not change the fact. Just because O.J. Simpson got away with killing 2 people and others as well doesn't mean it's safe to do that.

Imagine this: Russian citizen lands in New York City, shows US passport trying to enter. No big deal? Just a slap on the wrist?

ok

Here's the thing, Gary: somebody, who is not a citizen of a certain country (whether it's Ukraine, Russia, or the USA), yet uses a passport of such country falsely identifying them as a citizen, is committing a serious offense.

#1 I dont have 2 passports (Gary doesnt either as I understand it), only the USA one, and he and I only presents that one to enter Ukraine. #2 where did you read that he presents himself as a citizen of Ukraine?

#3 My Fiancee has only the Russian international passport (Garys wife with only the Ukrainian one) (if you would have read the entire thread without your preconceived notions you would have noticed this) So when we travel abroad she ONLY has this passport, no others, and certainly not fake ones.

Ill never understand people who read half a thread (or are just ignorant or lack reading comprehension) then try to comment on it

Edited June 29, 2010 by captainofiron

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

ok

Here's the thing, Gary: somebody, who is not a citizen of a certain country (whether it's Ukraine, Russia, or the USA), yet uses a passport of such country falsely identifying them as a citizen, is committing a serious offense.

#1 I dont have 2 passports (Gary doesnt either as I understand it), only the USA one, and he and I only presents that one to enter Ukraine. #2 where did you read that he presents himself as a citizen of Ukraine?

#3 My Fiancee has only the Russian international passport (Garys wife with only the Ukrainian one) (if you would have read the entire thread without your preconceived notions you would have noticed this) So when we travel abroad she ONLY has this passport, no others, and certainly not fake ones.

Ill never understand people who read half a thread (or are just ignorant or lack reading comprehension) then try to comment on it

This is a frequent tactic used by VJ members, or maybe I should say by "keyboard commandos" when they have put their foot in their mouth. Actually "Just Bob" is usually a fairly reasonable guy. The method goes like this....

Invent something that doesn't exist and no one ever "said" and then argue THAT because they cannot argue their position sensibly. So give someone else a position and argue THAT instead.

Keeping a Ukrainian passport after becoming a US citizen (something my wife is at least 1.5 years away from) is in no way related to false passprts, brutal knife murders or espionage in the form of sneaking across borders using false documents.

Arguing the case for what it is...someone keeping a passport from the country they were born in and was issued legitmately and legally under the laws of that country is simply a "ho hum" issue. Who cares? Bob knows this. But if Bob can make a person with a functioning brain cell THINK that keeping a passport is somehow the same as Russian spies or Islamic terrorists making passports at their kitchen table or that Alla helped plan the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson...now THAT is a bit more juicy.

I could, for example, say that it strikes a nerve with Just Bob because it was the First Ukrainian Front that stomped the bejeezsus out of Berlin, but such would be just as silly as relating Alla's passport to homocide, so I won't do that.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

Do you really want to twist my words around to distort the issue?

Gary, I don't care what Alla has in her sock drawer and, for the record, I don't believe there is any problem in keeping the Ukrainian passport beyond its validity date. The point that I was trying to make that if a person is not a citizen of a country (anymore) yet uses that passport in a way to pretend she is, whether it's renewing it in Ukraine or using it to enter another country, that's a serious offense.

The NYC example I used to illustrate the point. Obviously, a USC can use a US passport, but somebody who is not a USC cannot legally, ot they will end up in a cell, whether it's detention, jail or prison. I'm sure that's the same in USA as it is in Russia or Ukraine.

Instead of the O.J. example, I could have used red traffic lights or smoking pot or anything that's prohibited but people get away with. It was used to illustrate a point and not in order to discuss murder cases or compare them to using false documentation.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Just Bob

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Do you really want to twist my words around to distort the issue?

Gary, I don't care what Alla has in her sock drawer and, for the record, I don't believe there is any problem in keeping the Ukrainian passport beyond its validity date. The point that I was trying to make that if a person is not a citizen of a country (anymore) yet uses that passport in a way to pretend she is, whether it's renewing it in Ukraine or using it to enter another country, that's a serious offense.

The NYC example I used to illustrate the point. Obviously, a USC can use a US passport, but somebody who is not a USC cannot legally, ot they will end up in a cell, whether it's detention, jail or prison. I'm sure that's the same in USA as it is in Russia or Ukraine.

Instead of the O.J. example, I could have used red traffic lights or smoking pot or anything that's prohibited but people get away with. It was used to illustrate a point and not in order to discuss murder cases or compare them to using false documentation.

Whatever Bob. I hope you get over it and have a happy life. Alla will not, has not and will never "use a false passport" to enter any country for any reason. I never suggested such, so if we want to cut twisting words, something a NO BS member ought to be interested in, let's start with those. I am simply not going to continue an "argument" over something I never said, implied or insinuated. When you hear that Alla is making passports in the basement, let me know and I will have something to say about it.

There is no need to try and relate this to some sort of crime, we are all grown ups and we can discuss things for what they are, at least I can. If it becomes boring and unintersting to debate a Ukrainian born woman having a Ukrainian passport in her drawer (as well it might) then let it go. This is not The National Enquirer. There are no juicy sex or crime scandals here to relate to. Just pretty boring routine family travel...the kind that people used to torture friends and family with 8mm movies of.

It also simply makes no sense to say that there is no problem "in keeping" the valid passport. Under your premise the VALID passport becomes a FALSE passport when she takes the oath of US citizenship. Either it is or it isn't Bob. At what point and by which action does a Ukrainian become NOT a Ukrainian Bob?

[LvivLovers 39]

FYI, Interesting link on Ukranian/Dual citizenship:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_citizenship

[captainofiron 2]

FYI, Interesting link on Ukranian/Dual citizenship:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_citizenship

Thanks, there are some good links and info there

Edited June 30, 2010 by captainofiron

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

At what point and by which action does a Ukrainian become NOT a Ukrainian Bob?

A Ukrainian does lose her Ukrainian citizenship when becoming a US citizen. The action is called voluntarily acquisition of a foreign citizenship.

The passport, even if it has a validity date beyond her naturalization, becomes invalid the moment she becomes a US citizen. If she uses her Ukrainian passport when she is no Ukrainian citizen (anymore), it's equal to using a 'fake' passport or another person's passport. Gross misrepresenation, Gary, and a friend of mine went to jail in Gemany for it and was banned for lifetime to ever visit his "old" country again.

Was that a trick question?

Edited June 30, 2010 by Just Bob

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

A Ukrainian does lose her Ukrainian citizenship when becoming a US citizen. The action is called voluntarily acquisition of a foreign citizenship.

The passport, even if it has a validity date beyond her naturalization, becomes invalid the moment she becomes a US citizen. If she uses her Ukrainian passport when she is no Ukrainian citizen (anymore), it's equal to using a 'fake' passport or another person's passport. Gross misrepresenation, Gary, and a friend of mine went to jail in Gemany for it and was banned for lifetime to ever visit his "old" country again.

Was that a trick question?

But does the US inform the Ukraine? As long as the Ukraine isn't aware that a person is a citizen of another country then technically the person is still a citizen on the books right?

I'm reminded of an American who took Japanese citizenship and renounced his US citizenship in a japanese ceremony. Yet the US still considered him a US citizen. (Yes, I know this scenario is technically reversed to the current one)

Edited June 30, 2010 by Sousuke

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

But does the US inform the Ukraine? As long as the Ukraine isn't aware that a person is a citizen of another country then technically the person is still a citizen on the books right?

I'm reminded of an American who took Japanese citizenship and renounced his US citizenship in a japanese ceremony. Yet the US still considered him a US citizen. (Yes, I know this scenario is technically reversed to the current one)

For instance I found this on the UN website:

There is no automatic loss of Ukranian citizenship, neither upon emigration nor upon acquisition of another citizenship. Ukraine does not formally recognize dual citizenship with Israel or other countries; however, to lose citizenship, a person must formally request renunciation of their Ukrainian citizenship from Ukrainian authorities, and that process is neither automatic nor immediate.

[captainofiron 2]

For instance I found this on the UN website:

There is no automatic loss of Ukranian citizenship, neither upon emigration nor upon acquisition of another citizenship. Ukraine does not formally recognize dual citizenship with Israel or other countries; however, to lose citizenship, a person must formally request renunciation of their Ukrainian citizenship from Ukrainian authorities, and that process is neither automatic nor immediate.

And renunciation of Ukrainian citizenship can be denied by the Ukrainian authorities for whatever reason they want.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

So basically the passport is valid until the Ukrainian Government specifically says its invalid. It doesn't just magically happen the minute you swear an oath in another country. Or at least that's my take.