fetus can't feel pain before 24 weeks

[Fandango 1,440]

I *think* I get what MadHouse is saying.

If you've ALREADY made the decision that you're NOT going to abort NO MATTER WHAT, then it's not much of an 'agonizing choice' is it?

But if you did do the amnio (and I don't know much about the procdure -- just that a cousin of mine was afraid of getting it done but they decided to go ahead with it because to them 'knowing/being prepared' was better than 'not-knowing') and then, God forbid, you found out that the fetus WAS in fact, unviable, THEN it would be the most damned difficult choice you ever made in your life.

For us, it was the 'what kind of life would we be bringing him/her into if there's a serious problem' and all the other 'what ifs' that come with that. And then it's the 'ok, well if it's worst case scenario time, what do we do?' My faith tells me one thing, my political party also believes the same. But believing it in theory is different than real-world-this-is-happening-to-me-so-perhaps-I'm-a-hypocrite situations. Not all people of faith just blindly and happily follow...sometimes there's a crisis of conscience, a crisis of weakness, whatever. It's not the automatic paint-by-numbers 'oh I don't believe in abortion'...at least it wasn't for us. So it was never an automatic 'we're not having an abortion no matter what' situation, and I never claimed it was. In fact, I said pretty much all of this in my first response to 6 on this matter. It WAS a choice we agonized over, and for anyone to claim otherwise is just ignorant because (s)he doesn't know us better than we do.

Again, I don't know how the argument got here, because i am NOT pushing my beliefs on anyone...as I said before, that is between him, her, and their God, if any.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Happy Bunny

[Fandango 1,440]

I am entirely aware of that. I am just skeptical of anyone who would state outright that they would behave in a given way if they knew that their child had serious life threatening deformities. I couldn't and I don't see how anyone could maintain that opinion unless they have faced the situation of having to consider an abortion because of that.

Obviously that isn't an experience anyone should have to face, but unless you have had to challenge your own preconceptions on the subject, how could anyone know what they would or wouldn't do?

Because as stated numerous times, that's exactly what we did. And we faced the situation head on. That's what you're missing.

[tmma 467]

On the stimulus topic.......In MY experience, Ryan at 26 weeks used to kick like mad when rap came on the radio and calm down again when I put Tchikovsky ( sp) on the CD player and the small headphones on my bump....lol...It's true. He also used to flip and kick alot when i did {light} housework and then calm down when I plonked on the sofa with a book and read out loud.....LOL. He gets the hatred of housework off me. I'm convinced it is genetic.

[Amby 490]

A long time ago I learned to never argue with Lisa. Today I learned to NEVER EVER argue with pregnant Lisa

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Cleo, I find it absolutely bizarre that you would want this thread closed because a photo was used in an emotional way. People do it all the time, so what? It doesn't violate the TOS. I find it even somewhat hypocritical given you advocate zero moderation in OT.

[tmma 467]

Cleo, I find it absolutely bizarre that you would want this thread closed because a photo was used in an emotional way. People do it all the time, so what? It doesn't violate the TOS. I find it even somewhat hypocritical given you advocate zero moderation in OT.

I was suprised at that too. I am thinking that's the first time I have ever seen Cleo call for a thread closure or moderation....Even on the website-that-cannot-be-mentioned ( AKA the cesspool).

[Fandango 1,440]

A long time ago I learned to never argue with Lisa. Today I learned to NEVER EVER argue with pregnant Lisa

That actually made me snort, heh.

I just don't get the need to constantly fight over who's right and who's wrong. It's all just an exchange of information from different perspectives. I can appreciate someone else's that I disagree with, without having to tell them how effing stupid or wrong they are, ergo how right and brilliant I am. I've said a zillion times, I'm not a scientist, my information is purely speculative, there's no research behind it. Yet, all this stupid sh!t gets thrown in the mix. Even the whole objection to me using *my* sono instead of a stock google one...like what's the point?

Eh, that's a mb for ya

This was a second post in response to Sous and Tmma, but it attached to my original:

Re: cleo and the pic.....It's just a tactic, is all. Rhetoric to dismiss an opinion as invalid because there's too much 'emotion'

Edited June 25, 2010 by Happy Bunny

[Peikko 1,575]

I did not want the thread closed, I wanted the picture invisibleized because it seemed to be totally inappropriate to have a personal picture of a fetus in a discussion on such a sensitive topic. I still believe that it was a silly thing to do, it seemed easier to ask for it to be invisibalized than try to skirt around the issues.

At the end of the day, if people want to be silly, that is their right.

[Susita 175]

Not that it's my call, but regardless of opinion, I don't know if it would make a difference to delete the photo IMO.

I mean, I had one of those 3D sono pics in my signature which appeared in every single thread I posted in, even ones about abortion. There are other members with the same, and they don't change their signature according to the topic of a thread.

Just sayin'

Please don't backlash at me I love everybody

[Fandango 1,440]

But a stock photo of a fetus would be fine? That makes no sense to me at all.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I did not want the thread closed, I wanted the picture invisibleized because it seemed to be totally inappropriate to have a personal picture of a fetus in a discussion on such a sensitive topic. I still believe that it was a silly thing to do, it seemed easier to ask for it to be invisibalized than try to skirt around the issues.

At the end of the day, if people want to be silly, that is their right.

It just seems odd since its not a TOS violation.

[Peikko 1,575]

That actually made me snort, heh.

I just don't get the need to constantly fight over who's right and who's wrong. It's all just an exchange of information from different perspectives. I can appreciate someone else's that I disagree with, without having to tell them how effing stupid or wrong they are, ergo how right and brilliant I am. I've said a zillion times, I'm not a scientist, my information is purely speculative, there's no research behind it. Yet, all this stupid sh!t gets thrown in the mix. Even the whole objection to me using *my* sono instead of a stock google one...like what's the point?

Eh, that's a mb for ya

This was a second post in response to Sous and Tmma, but it attached to my original:

Re: cleo and the pic.....It's just a tactic, is all. Rhetoric to dismiss an opinion as invalid because there's too much 'emotion'

No Lisa it was not a 'tactic' and your opinion is not dismissed because you choose to display your fetus in a thread about abortion. I have no emotional attachment to your fetus, your picture does nothing for me one way or another. Were I to decide to have one, I would not be swayed not to be such pictures, nor can I give your argument any more weight than it deserves because of it, and your argument has no merit whatsoever, because it's based on your personal response to your own fetus.

I think you made a poor choice because you are using a picture of your own fetus to further an extremely dubious position, the 'mother knows best' argument as against the weight of opinion from experts. You have no clear response to science except that for you it's all a 'matter of opinion' and so your opinion, as a mother, is equally valid. It's not. You have determined that you know how your fetus feels based on nothing but emotion, they must 'feel something because they respond to stimulus'. People have gently tried to tell you that your opinion is bullshit, because it can be proved that responses to stimulus often have absolutely zero relationship with feeling anything, let alone pain, but no, your picture proves that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

[Peikko 1,575]

It just seems odd since its not a TOS violation.

I explained my reasoning. Lisa is a mother to be, she has an investment in her fetus - any argument that ensues is going to be coloured by that fact. It's not helpful and it is an attempt at emotional manipulation. However, Lisa claims that it does not bother her to use her fetus in this way. So be it, I'll not worry about it any further.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I explained my reasoning. Lisa is a mother to be, she has an investment in her fetus - any argument that ensues is going to be coloured by that fact. It's not helpful and it is an attempt at emotional manipulation. However, Lisa claims that it does not bother her to use her fetus in this way. So be it, I'll not worry about it any further.

Okay, just realize that emotional manipulation happens every day and is protected even on this site.

[Fandango 1,440]

No Lisa it was not a 'tactic' and your opinion is not dismissed because you choose to display your fetus in a thread about abortion. I have no emotional attachment to your fetus, your picture does nothing for me one way or another. Were I to decide to have one, I would not be swayed not to be such pictures, nor can I give your argument any more weight than it deserves because of it, and your argument has no merit whatsoever, because it's based on your personal response to your own fetus.

I think you made a poor choice because you are using a picture of your own fetus to further an extremely dubious position, the 'mother knows best' argument as against the weight of opinion from experts. You have no clear response to science except that for you it's all a 'matter of opinion' and so your opinion, as a mother, is equally valid. It's not. You have determined that you know how your fetus feels based on nothing but emotion, they must 'feel something because they respond to stimulus'. People have gently tried to tell you that your opinion is bullshit, because it can be proved that responses to stimulus often have absolutely zero relationship with feeling anything, let alone pain, but no, your picture proves that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

Again, I never said 'mother knows best' in fact, I said otherwise...obviously you missed that:

My argument is, I have seen a 22 week old fetus physically respond to physical stimuli. He didn't 'smell' the tech. It has nothing to do with me about to be a mom therefore-I'm-smarter-than-every-scientist-around. Or it being *my* child...but being as this is the only one I can speak about as having seen, that is what I go on. If this was my bff's child, and I was childless, I'd feel the exact same way. Why? because I watched it myself and am not basing it on hearsay.

You have no basis to tell me my opinion is bullshit; that's my point. You can cite study after study, I'll pull some studies out of my azz too which prove what I say as true. You are certainly free to disagree with me all you want, but your constant need to be 'right' in almost every thread I see you participate in is just ridiculous. So what? I disagree. So what? I think that if a fetus can respond to stimuli, THERE'S EVEN A SLIGHT CHANCE HE CAN FEEL PAIN. Can you personally say otherwise? No you can't. You and I can have a link war, but at the end of the day, it's all guesswork based on 'some study somewhere'

As if studies haven't been disproven before. Come on now.