fetus can't feel pain before 24 weeks

[Peikko 1,575]

It was a joke, hence the 'lol' Hence the 'as if to say', instead of saying something definitive like 'he was irritated/annoyed/etc' But I'd hardly have called it 'outrage' hehehe.

( I've already said to you in this thread, but whatever.)

I'm aware that it was a joke, however, everything you have posted points to the fact that you believe your 22 week old fetus has access (or had, not sure how far along you are) to personal awareness. That's just rubbish.

[tmma 467]

I understand what you are saying, not taking that test, which does have its own set of risks is not necessarily down to wanting to 'avoid' the unpleasantness of facing the abortion question should the tests prove that the baby is unviable - indeed there is nothing wrong with going through a full pregnancy and delivering a non viable baby and experiencing all the emotions that go along with this. It's a choice, like all other choices that have to be faced with pregnancy. The point is though, that if you do know that a fetus is unviable, what is wrong with taking the decision not to go through with it? Why is that definitely a no no for someone not having faced that decision? I think that is what is being asked, and not answered.

Ugh--i don't know. does anyone really know. We can only guess what we would do ( unless we have been through it)

You cannot get a clear and definitive answer that satisfact. fits the delimma, because there is none. It's a private, personal choice.....and one where logic is in competition with feelings, deep feelings that are just as important..

I think the whole abortion topic is way too polarizing and way too emotive and the decision a huge personal responsibility. Plus I think too many folks are so judgemental against those that have had abortions - for whatever reasons.... ....But I certainly do not judge or runner stamp those that do.. It's their choice. Their responsibility. Just like i am hoping not to get rubber stamped with the 'avoidance' tag because I did not have the amnio.

[GabiandVi 34]

My personal experience of an ultrasound proves nothing, period.

So what? So, as one part of the debate as to whether or not to reduce the limit on abortion from 24 weeks, the fact that a fetus has no access to the emotion we describe as pain is an important factor, but only one of many, that's so what.

First of all, I would not describe pain as an emotion.

Your personal experience may not prove anything, but, if this is all about choice, you have to experience pregnancy to make the choice.

[Fandango 1,440]

I understand what you are saying, not taking that test, which does have its own set of risks is not necessarily down to wanting to 'avoid' the unpleasantness of facing the abortion question should the tests prove that the baby is unviable - indeed there is nothing wrong with going through a full pregnancy and delivering a non viable baby and experiencing all the emotions that go along with this. It's a choice, like all other choices that have to be faced with pregnancy. The point is though, that if you do know that a fetus is unviable, what is wrong with taking the decision not to go through with it? Why is that definitely a no no for someone not having faced that decision? I think that is what is being asked, and not answered.

No, that's not what was ever asked. In fact, I told 6 that I understood the feelings of people faced with that choice.

[tmma 467]

sidestepping the issue, rather than taking it on directly.

How can you assume she side stepped anything?? You don't know that. You are applying your own logic and values to her situation. the decision was already made. the amnio would have put the baby at unness risk.

It is rather offensive to assume she or anyone that refuses the amnio is avoiding anything.

Edited June 25, 2010 by tmma

[Peikko 1,575]

No, that's not what was ever asked. In fact, I told 6 that I understood the feelings of people faced with that choice.

Yes, that is exactly what he wanted to know, how you know you would not abort even in the situation that the baby was unviable because that's what you said you would do, keep the pregnancy despite any contradictions. It is not a fair question either way, you can't answer it with a yes or a no, but you have said you do know based on your choice not to have the test to find out whether there were any potential problems. That's the nub of it.

[Fandango 1,440]

Well Lisa you can't have it all your own way, and this is perhaps reason enough why personalising the issue by using your own pregnancy.

I am not saying that I think your decision was wrong, that would be intrusive and offensive, I am saying from what you posted that depriving yourself of information that might have put you in a difficult position is sidestepping the issue, rather than taking it on directly.

I stated earlier that I didn't believe a person faced with that situation would be able to make the decision to abort or not abort easily - regardless of what preconceptions they may have. you have made your decision by avoiding the difficult situation.

I'm sorry if you are offended by my saying this but sincerely it is not my intent.

True, but this has nothing to do with the posting of the ultrasound, only moreso to do with my anecdotal story.

Don't you see that it's not sidestepping at all? It's saying 'worst case scenario, we're still going through with this' It's not avoiding a thing. That's what I find offensive about it. I appreciate you're not trying to be, and I'm not accusing you of being antagonistic, I just cannot for the life of me understand how you can claim to know that it's 'avoiding a difficult situation' when in reality, it took us weeks and weeks of sleepless nights to decide.

[Fandango 1,440]

Yes, that is exactly what he wanted to know, how you know you would not abort even in the situation that the baby was unviable because that's what you said you would do, keep the pregnancy despite any contradictions. It is not a fair question either way, you can't answer it with a yes or a no, but you have said you do know based on your choice not to have the test to find out whether there were any potential problems. That's the nub of it.

Absolutely.

In fact, I am quite 'baby close' to this new father in my office. We talk about babies a lot, heh. His wife and I share the same doc, she's roughly the same age as I am. I talked to them about whether they chose to do the tests, and he said the same thing I did. "we don't believe in abortion so why put the baby through that stress. She's ours no matter what'

So when 6 says he doesn't know how anybody can make that choice, I assert it's done on a daily basis all over the world.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

How can you assume she side stepped anything?? You don't know that. You are applying your own logic and values to her situation. the decision was already made. the amnio would have put the baby at unness risk.

It is rather offensive to assume she or anyone that refuses the amnio is avoiding anything.

If a person is saying I will never abort, no way no how anyone can say that if they havent faced a difficult situation where it might be necessary?

As you say its a personal choice regardless, I just find it odd.

[Fandango 1,440]

If a person is saying I will never abort, no way no how anyone can say that if they havent faced a difficult situation where it might be necessary?

As you say its a personal choice regardless, I just find it odd.

That's the point, every future parent in my shoes that chooses to forego tests right before the 'abortion cutoff' is faced with those situations.

[tmma 467]

If a person is saying I will never abort, no way no how anyone can say that if they havent faced a difficult situation where it might be necessary?

As you say its a personal choice regardless, I just find it odd.

Well why didn't you just say ' I find that unusual ' or something instead of accusing her of 'avoidance' or 'side stepping' --ieffectively implying her inability or unwillingness to make a tough decison. The tough decision was already made. You can find it odd or unusual, and that's OK in itself, of course..... but that's your reaction, your thoughts, your logic and does not account for everyone.

[sachinky 465]

I *think* I get what MadHouse is saying.

If you've ALREADY made the decision that you're NOT going to abort NO MATTER WHAT, then it's not much of an 'agonizing choice' is it?

But if you did do the amnio (and I don't know much about the procdure -- just that a cousin of mine was afraid of getting it done but they decided to go ahead with it because to them 'knowing/being prepared' was better than 'not-knowing') and then, God forbid, you found out that the fetus WAS in fact, unviable, THEN it would be the most damned difficult choice you ever made in your life.

[tmma 467]

I *think* I get what MadHouse is saying.

If you've ALREADY made the decision that you're NOT going to abort NO MATTER WHAT, then it's not much of an 'agonizing choice' is it?

But if you did do the amnio (and I don't know much about the procdure -- just that a cousin of mine was afraid of getting it done but they decided to go ahead with it because to them 'knowing/being prepared' was better than 'not-knowing') and then, God forbid, you found out that the fetus WAS in fact, unviable, THEN it would be the most damned difficult choice you ever made in your life.

I object to the accusations of side stepping and avoidance. How does he know that?

As for your first point......You can turn it around and say why put the baby at additional risk when the decision is the same? -edit--there's no universally right answer to this.......Like I said it's a purely personal choice and personal responsibility and only the individual involved can make the call based on themselves. Not the rubber stamps or assumptions being banded around.

Edited June 25, 2010 by tmma

[Peikko 1,575]

The point is that being faced with the reality of such a decision instead of the possibility of the idea that it might happen are entirely different scenarios.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well why didn't you just say ' I find that unusual ' or something instead of accusing her of 'avoidance' or 'side stepping' --ieffectively implying her inability or unwillingness to make a tough decison. The tough decision was already made. You can find it odd or unusual, and that's OK in itself, of course..... but that's your reaction, your thoughts, your logic and does not account for everyone.

I am entirely aware of that. I am just skeptical of anyone who would state outright that they would behave in a given way if they knew that their child had serious life threatening deformities. I couldn't and I don't see how anyone could maintain that opinion unless they have faced the situation of having to consider an abortion because of that.

Obviously that isn't an experience anyone should have to face, but unless you have had to challenge your own preconceptions on the subject, how could anyone know what they would or wouldn't do?