fetus can't feel pain before 24 weeks

[Fandango 1,439]

Lisa - the only way I can think to explain it is like this. there's different types of nerves. each type of nerve has a different purpose. some send messages to the brain, others send messages back to the stimulated area. so if the nerves for stimulus are responding it doesn't mean the nerve pathways for pain are formed as well. they very well could be, but the article says they aren't. I don't know a ton about nerves, but that's the only way I can think to explain it without getting into lots of medical terminology.

Right, wrong, or otherwise, this study is not going to change my mind. Science is guesswork at best using the technology that is available at the time. Who knows what is going to come out next year which may or may not contradict what this says? I personally believe if a fetus can feel stimuli, it's shortsighted to say it can't feel pain. Scoff if you must, but that's how I feel.

[tmma 467]

.......

I'm not talking about "feelings", it's a question of logic.

You *could* have had the ultrasound secure in your commitment that you would never have aborted, but you didn't because but that would have presented you and your partner with a difficult situation had the exam shown up any serious problems.

I'm not judging you for it, I'm just skeptical that anyone could say outright that they would never abort. It's a very big issue - I don't see how anyone can say with certainty what they'd do.

It's more than 'an ultrasound', I believe. My experience is 10 years old, but the amnio proceedure came with a whole host of risks to the baby. I decided not to have one for some of the very same reasons as Lisa....which to me have alot to do with 'logic'.....It's not avoidance of a decision as you are implying. The decision is already made irregardless of the results of the test..

to not talk about 'feelings' on any part of this particular topic is futile.

Everyone has their OWN logic. Everyone has their OWN feelings and everyone makes their own decisions based on such. To try and eliminate 'feelings' and replace with only 'logic' is pointless when it comes to something as emotionally charged as pregnancy/ tests/ abortion....etc.

[Peikko 1,575]

Right, wrong, or otherwise, this study is not going to change my mind. Science is guesswork at best using the technology that is available at the time. Who knows what is going to come out next year which may or may not contradict what this says? I personally believe if a fetus can feel stimuli, it's shortsighted to say it can't feel pain. Scoff if you must, but that's how I feel.

Right, of course it is.

[GabiandVi 34]

I'm sorry - but I really have a hard time believing that. At the risk of getting into an area of extreme bad taste (yet another reason why personalising this topic wasn't a great idea) if you found out tomorrow that your baby had catastrophic brain damage and would likely spend his entire life in a quadriplegic, vegetative state - I honestly doubt that you wouldn't find yourself agonising over what course of action to take. I really do...

This was not directed to me, but I have to say that you cannot speak for anyone but yourself. You can easily cast aspersions about the truthfulness of someone's assertions about how they would react in this sort of situation, or how little they know about themselves, but I think that is completely unfair and SHOULD be against VJ rules.

Though due to my age at pregnancy my chances of having a child with a chromosomal abnormality were rather high, we decided not to have an amnio partly because we wouldn't have acted on any information. I would have liked to have known to prepare myself for the eventuality, but the chances of having a miscarriage as a result of the amnio were high enough to outweigh the benefits. There was another issue later in my pregnancy about which little is currently known but to which some scienties are trying to establish a link to severe birth defects. I will admit that I felt great fear and faced some doubts about how I would deal with a child with severe birth defects, but I NEVER doubted my decision. I was overjoyed that our daughter was born with no defects and no signs of chromosomal abnomalities. But again, I'll admit I was not comforted that she would be "normal" until she began to consistently exhibit advanced development according to the charts in "What to Expect. . . "

[Nina~ 431]

If one can feel stimuli, how can one not feel pain? I find that a very curious distinction.

It is not necessarily true that a living organism "feels" stimuli. Stimulus can occur through visual, auditory, and olfactory channels. For example, a person paralyzed from the neck down can not "feel" someone pinching him, however he can hear someone talking to him or get hungry smelling food. So equating a response to stimuli to "feel" or "pain" is not entirely correct.

I have been following this thread for a while and here is my take on it. Your argument seems to be: The scientists are wrong because I know best since I am going to be a mom and here is a picture to prove it. If you are going to refute a scientific argument, come up with some scientific proof/study to back up your argument.

[Fandango 1,439]

This is what you posted "When they were pushing on my belly to get him to move around, he put his hand in front of his face as if to say 'leave me alone, I'm sleeping' lol"

You have given an entirely adult interpretation to whatever it was that happened at the point the fetal picture was taken - hence why 'outrage' was in quotation marks. You clearly believe that the response to the stimulation was based on the fetus having self awareness and the ability to respond, in a mature (as in mature nervous system) manner to stimulation. The study that you describe as complete bullshit no doubt explains why this point of view is so fatally flawed, understandable as it is, after all you are a would be mother and necessarily protective of the unborn, which is natural, understandable and utterly normal but in no way contributes to any debate on this matter in a way that can be seen as meaningful.

It was a joke, hence the 'lol' Hence the 'as if to say', instead of saying something definitive like 'he was irritated/annoyed/etc' But I'd hardly have called it 'outrage' hehehe.

( I've already said to you in this thread, but whatever.)

[Amby 490]

Right, wrong, or otherwise, this study is not going to change my mind. Science is guesswork at best using the technology that is available at the time. Who knows what is going to come out next year which may or may not contradict what this says? I personally believe if a fetus can feel stimuli, it's shortsighted to say it can't feel pain. Scoff if you must, but that's how I feel.

I'm just saying it's possible that something can respond to a stimulus without feeling pain. There's no nerves for pain in the brain so if someone's brain (an adult even!) is shocked (stimulated) with something while they're awake like you see on tv programs during an operation, they don't feel it. the person still responds to it by moving their arm or twitching something or whatever, but they didn't feel the shock.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Amby

[Peikko 1,575]

It's more than 'an ultrasound', I believe. My experience is 10 years old, but the amnio proceedure came with a whole host of risks to the baby. I decided not to have one for some of the very same reasons as Lisa....which to me have alot to do with 'logic'.....It's not avoidance of a decision as you are implying. The decision is already made irregardless of the results of the test..

to not talk about 'feelings' on any part of this particular topic is futile.

Everyone has their OWN logic. Everyone has their OWN feelings and everyone makes their own decisions based on such. To try and eliminate 'feelings' and replace with only 'logic' is pointless when it comes to something as emotionally charged as pregnancy/ tests/ abortion....etc.

I understand what you are saying, not taking that test, which does have its own set of risks is not necessarily down to wanting to 'avoid' the unpleasantness of facing the abortion question should the tests prove that the baby is unviable - indeed there is nothing wrong with going through a full pregnancy and delivering a non viable baby and experiencing all the emotions that go along with this. It's a choice, like all other choices that have to be faced with pregnancy. The point is though, that if you do know that a fetus is unviable, what is wrong with taking the decision not to go through with it? Why is that definitely a no no for someone not having faced that decision? I think that is what is being asked, and not answered.

[tmma 467]

Why do some folks have such a hard time believing that a mother would choose NOT to abort if brain defects were found in her baby? Is it so hard to believe that some mothers would still have the baby? Some nothers would not 'agonize' the decision. I think there is too much applying one's own logic and using it as arguement for how you are ASSUMING someone else would respond to the news.

You might 'agonize'......Some have said they would not. The decision is made to keep the baby.

[GabiandVi 34]

Oh good grief. What has my personal experience of ultrasound got to do with anything at all? It is not relevant.

The facts are that a fetus movement in the womb can not be translated into an adult experience of the same stimulation/response mechanism. A fetus obviously is able to move and can at some level respond to some forms of stimulus, but it's consciousness of that movement, and self awareness are completely undeveloped as is the mechanism to feel pain - which are most probably interconnected if you understand what they say about the experience of the fetus during this period of development at all.

Actually personal experience of pregnancy has a lot to do with this topic.

And the facts are that the movement of a one day old child cannot be translated into an adult experience of the same stimulation/response mechanism. So what? They also don't have the same response to pain that they have a year later. And the facts are that adults have different responses to pain. So what?

[Fandango 1,439]

It is not necessarily true that a living organism "feels" stimuli. Stimulus can occur through visual, auditory, and olfactory channels. For example, a person paralyzed from the neck down can not "feel" someone pinching him, however he can hear someone talking to him or get hungry smelling food. So equating a response to stimuli to "feel" or "pain" is not entirely correct.

I have been following this thread for a while and here is my take on it. Your argument seems to be: The scientists are wrong because I know best since I am going to be a mom and here is a picture to prove it. If you are going to refute a scientific argument, come up with some scientific proof/study to back up your argument.

My argument is, I have seen a 22 week old fetus physically respond to physical stimuli. He didn't 'smell' the tech. It has nothing to do with me about to be a mom therefore-I'm-smarter-than-every-scientist-around. Or it being *my* child...but being as this is the only one I can speak about as having seen, that is what I go on. If this was my bff's child, and I was childless, I'd feel the exact same way. Why? because I watched it myself and am not basing it on hearsay.

[Amby 490]

peep I think you being pregnant with all those pregnant hormones makes you naturally protective of all things baby. I still ya though!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well Lisa you can't have it all your own way, and this is perhaps reason enough why personalising the issue by using your own pregnancy.

I am not saying that I think your decision was wrong, that would be intrusive and offensive, I am saying from what you posted that depriving yourself of information that might have put you in a difficult position is sidestepping the issue, rather than taking it on directly.

I stated earlier that I didn't believe a person faced with that situation would be able to make the decision to abort or not abort easily - regardless of what preconceptions they may have. you have made your decision by avoiding the difficult situation.

I'm sorry if you are offended by my saying this but sincerely it is not my intent.

[GabiandVi 34]

It is not necessarily true that a living organism "feels" stimuli. Stimulus can occur through visual, auditory, and olfactory channels. For example, a person paralyzed from the neck down can not "feel" someone pinching him, however he can hear someone talking to him or get hungry smelling food. So equating a response to stimuli to "feel" or "pain" is not entirely correct.

I have been following this thread for a while and here is my take on it. Your argument seems to be: The scientists are wrong because I know best since I am going to be a mom and here is a picture to prove it. If you are going to refute a scientific argument, come up with some scientific proof/study to back up your argument.

http://www.ampainsoc.org/pub/bulletin/jul03/article1.htm

[Peikko 1,575]

Actually personal experience of pregnancy has a lot to do with this topic.

And the facts are that the movement of a one day old child cannot be translated into an adult experience of the same stimulation/response mechanism. So what? They also don't have the same response to pain that they have a year later. And the facts are that adults have different responses to pain. So what?

My personal experience of an ultrasound proves nothing, period.

So what? So, as one part of the debate as to whether or not to reduce the limit on abortion from 24 weeks, the fact that a fetus has no access to the emotion we describe as pain is an important factor, but only one of many, that's so what.