fetus can't feel pain before 24 weeks

[Fandango 1,439]

Moderators, suspend me if you must, but do not make any comments or this thread invisible. I stand by what I said and I wish to not have anyone hide behind the cloak of 'invisibility' where a know it all, trolling, antagonistic remark was met with my STFU response. Let them both stay out there for everyone to see.

Ty!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Regardless whether or not that was the point of the study, abortion advocates will use it as ammo to further "strengthen" their argument.

Edit: I thought the picture of the fetus at 22 weeks was very relevant.

It's important to distinguish the point if the study was commissioned by the government on the basis of whether "pain" is the reason that abortion limits should be lowered.

I'm not disputing the conclusions or the research just in the way it is framed against the wider issue. But yes I am sure that it will be used politically.

[DukeOfYork 28]

I'm not disputing the conclusions or the research just in the way it is framed against the wider issue. But yes I am sure that it will be used politically.

That's reasonable.

[raymaga 25]

Any threads about abortion, whether pro or against, are going to invite very emotional responses.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and everyone must make their own decisions about whether or not they choose to have an abortion. It is no one else's business!!!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Regardless whether or not that was the point of the study, abortion advocates will use it as ammo to further "strengthen" their argument.

Edit: I thought the picture of the fetus at 22 weeks was very relevant.

I have no issue with the study, only that it is important to point out that it is being used in a misleading way to get people outraged about it. If the study was commissioned by the government (as is stated), the question for me is whether the "pain" issue was brought up by the MPs as the reason to lower the abortion limit.

If we accept that these procedures are very rare during late term and are nearly always carried out because the fetis has catastrophic birth defects and would not survive, or if birth would seriously jeopardise the mothers health, then the issue of pain is only relevant from the point of view of refining humane procedures.

I think posting an image of a healthy child doesn't really serve any purpose in light of the topic, i do think it is emotionally manipulative in that regard.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Its a MADHOUSE

[Fandango 1,439]

I have no issue with the study, only that it is important to point out that it is being used in a misleading way to get people outraged about it. If the study was commissioned by the government (as is stated), the question for me is whether the "pain" issue was brought up by the MPs as the reason to lower the abortion limit.

If we accept that these procedures are very rare during late term and are nearly always carried out because the fetid has catastrophic birth defects and would not survive, or if birth would seriously jeopardise the mothers health, then the issue of pain is only relevant from the point of view of refining humane procedures.

I think posting an image of a healthy child doesn't really serve any purpose in light of the topic, i do think it is emotionally manipulative in that regard.

I posted the picture as proof that a fetus at 22 weeks can respond to stimuli, therefore can feel. Hence casting doubt on this study that they can't feel pain, which I think is BS.

People will do what they want to do...I can't govern everyone's opinion, nor would I really want to. Obviously, I am anti-abortion FOR ME, and feel it's wrong. But we should all remember that we can talk of a '24 week old fetus' as if it's a pork chop, but the image, whether emotional or not, is the same....it is a living being, with eyes, a face, a brain, etc. And therefore imo, very germane to the conversation.

[KaiserD 12]

I think posting an image of a healthy child doesn't really serve any purpose in light of the topic, i do think it is emotionally manipulative in that regard.

I want not want to use my child to illustrate my political or moral principles either because it is one of the few issues that would hurt me very personally but there's no rules on VJ to suggest she can't. I used a photograph on a purely artistic discussion once and that still made me feel very nervous.

On the issue itself, well I do think the last chance to abort for the "healthy" person could do with some scaling back, it's my feeling that it would be best for everyone involved. An important choice to be sure, but one that will be on a mother's mind every moment of the day until the decision is made, dragging it out just means more pain for everyone.

The ability to feel pain is a good deal of the argument to me, but not all of it.

I also wish there were some rules on how many abortions on a single person can be carried out, I know the number of people who use abortions as a manner of contraception must be small, but it is unnecessary to let that kind of person continue recklessly.

[Fandango 1,439]

I want not want to use my child to illustrate my political or moral principles either because it is one of the few issues that would hurt me very personally but there's no rules on VJ to suggest she can't. I used a photograph on a purely artistic discussion once and that still made me feel very nervous.

On the issue itself, well I do think the last chance to abort for the "healthy" person could do with some scaling back, it's my feeling that it would be best for everyone involved. An important choice to be sure, but one that will be on a mother's mind every moment of the day until the decision is made, dragging it out just means more pain for everyone.

The ability to feel pain is a good deal of the argument to me, but not all of it.

I also wish there were some rules on how many abortions on a single person can be carried out, I know the number of people who use abortions as a manner of contraception must be small, but it is unnecessary to let that kind of person continue recklessly.

I don't feel I exploited my child posting that picture...I could have posted a zillion others from google, but chose not to because I couldn't defend any other photo as saying I personally knew and witnessed the child responding to stimuli. So if a 22 week old can feel stimuli, how can it not feel pain as well?

I'm actually in love with that photo, and have proudly shown it off. Sure, to non parents it's prolly questionable, but for everyone else, I think they can understand the excitement and pride of showing off the only picture of your child that you have thusfar

But getting back to topic, I can't see how they can govern 'reasoning' behind getting an abortion. Problematic at the very best!

Edited June 25, 2010 by Happy Bunny

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It's only germane to the conversation if you believe healthy viable babies are being routinely aborted up to the 24 week limit. Personally, I'd defer to the expertise of the scientists in regard to the issue of "pain", but if we're talking about fetuses that aren't viable or which cannot be safely brought to term with serious risks to the mothers health, then exactly what purpose is served by posting a picture of a healthy fetus? It seems wrong to me to use it in that way.

Moreover, I find it very hard to believe that someone could say outright what side of the fence they'd fall on if they had to consider abortion at the late stage because the doctor found that the child had severe physical or mental impairments. I know I couldn't make a snap decision, and I certainly wouldn't do it on a message board...

[Peikko 1,575]

It is not possible to have a proper discussion with personal and subjective photographs being used as proof that a properly conducted scientific experiment is false. Everything else in this thread will be highly personalized because of it. While I can't stop someone from doing such a thing, the moderators should be able to. Use a stock photo if you must, but using your own personal fetal photographs to support an argument in such an emotive topic?

[JohnSmith2007 353]

Not getting into the argument, just posting facts.

Key Facts

In 2008, for women residents in England and Wales:

the total number of abortions was 195,296, compared with 198,499 in 2007, a fall of 1.6%

the age-standardised abortion rate was 18.2 per 1,000 resident women aged 15-44, compared with 18.6 in 2007

the abortion rate was highest at 36 per 1,000, for women age 19, the same as in 2007

the under-16 abortion rate was 4.2 and the under-18 rate was 18.9 per 1,000 women, both lower than in 2007

91% of abortions were funded by the NHS; of these, just over half (58%) took place in the independent sector under NHS contract

90% of abortions were carried out at under 13 weeks gestation; 73% were at under 10 weeks

medical abortions accounted for 38% of the total

1,988 abortions (1%) were under ground E, risk that the child would be born handicapped

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsStatistics/DH_099285

[Fandango 1,439]

It's only germane to the conversation if you believe healthy viable babies are being routinely aborted up to the 24 week limit. Personally, I'd defer to the expertise of the scientists in regard to the issue of "pain", but if we're talking about fetuses that aren't viable or which cannot be safely brought to term with serious risks to the mothers health, then exactly what purpose is served by posting a picture of a healthy fetus? It seems wrong to me to use it in that way.

Moreover, I find it very hard to believe that someone could say outright what side of the fence they'd fall on if they had to consider abortion at the late stage because the doctor found that the child had severe physical or mental impairments. I know I couldn't make a snap decision, and I certainly wouldn't do it on a message board...

I don't have any facts or figures offhand to know how many healthy babies are aborted, first of all. Secondly, I didn't see in the article where they referenced the 'not being able to feel pain' only to babies who are unhealthy or not viable. In fact, that angle was not referenced in the article once.

No, I'm not a scientist, but you tell me, if a 22 week old fetus can respond to stimuli, how can we be sure they can't feel pain? I think it's a valid question.

I will say outright what side of the fence I'd fall on. In fact, we were just faced with it 10 weeks ago. Doc said that the US is 20 weeks for an abortion, and wanted to give us the option to have an amnio done. We chose not to do the amnio, because at the end of the day, I wouldn't abort, regardless. And yeah, it was something we seriously discussed and didn't just say 'oh well, the religious right says this, or conservatives say this' It was real-world scenario, 'what are YOU gonna do if?' type stuff. I can appreciate how hard that kind of dilemma is for the best of us, when I struggled myself and consider abortion murder. But that's not what this topic was about. This was about '24 week old fetuses (fetii??? idk), cannot feel pain. And in my unscientific brain, that is bs based on what I myself have noticed.

[Gemmie 142]

Lisa, much as I love pics of fetus is this an appropriate place to post it? I mean, really, do you lack common sense?

I don't see anything wrong with HP posting her picture. Yes, this is an emotive subject, and part of the reasoning she feels the way she does is due to the picture and experiences she's had with her own fetus. I might be mis-remembering this, but people in the past have posted videos of how abortions are conducted, which you could argue sways people from then on to be emotionally pushed in that way.

[JohnSmith2007 353]

I don't have any facts or figures offhand to know how many healthy babies are aborted, first of all. Secondly, I didn't see in the article where they referenced the 'not being able to feel pain' only to babies who are unhealthy or not viable. In fact, that angle was not referenced in the article once.

Here are the facts for the UK in 2008:

1,988 abortions (1%) were under ground E, risk that the child would be born handicapped

[Gemmie 142]

It's only germane to the conversation if you believe healthy viable babies are being routinely aborted up to the 24 week limit.

1,988 abortions (1%) were under ground E, risk that the child would be born handicapped

I personally know of one person who aborted her healthy fetus at around 22 weeks because she didn't want it but couldn't find the moment to tell her family.