fetus can't feel pain before 24 weeks

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So we aren't supposed to stand up for what we believe, when a law goes against it? Since the death penalty is lawful in some places, people against it should just keep quiet? I think it's very important what the people think about the laws in their land in democracies. Why else would there be outrage all the time about all different kinds of laws?? Well the legality of abortion is also considered outrageous by some of us. Like some peopel are outragted about Arizona's law, the law about capping how much an oil company would be responsible for - which is now affection the BP leak, laws that don't allow gay marriage, I am trying to bring different views not just my own. Examples of laws that people speak out against because they don't agree with them. So why should people who don't agree that abortion isn't murder keep quiet?

I don't recall saying that anyone should "keep quiet" - I said that it is the law which defines what is or is not murder and for all intents and purposes that is a fact.

[Peikko 1,575]

No one in the debate is denying that a fetus is killed during an abortion procedure - the pertinent point as to whether it is or is not murder is how the law views the killing, not personal opinion. As an individual, you have the perfect right to say that you do not want any fetus to be killed, that for you killing a fetus is immoral, but it does not become murder just because you say so because murder is a legal term, not a moral one.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Then why is it when a pregnant woman is murdered it is considered a double homicide.

Because the nature of a crime depends on the circumstances of that crime.

Accidentally running someone over with your car and killing them is not murder (at least not first degree). Deliberately running someone over and killing them obviously is. The person is still dead regardless of whether the death was accidental or deliberate.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I don't recall saying that anyone should "keep quiet" - I said that it is the law which defines what is or is not murder and for all intents and purposes that is a fact.

FYI - Law is not fact. Law is opinion. Opinions can and do change.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Sofiyya

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

FYI - Law is not fact. Law is opinion.

That's about as thoroughly meaningless as response as it's possible to get.

But OK - have it your way: The opinion that defines current law does not classify abortion as murder. That too, is a fact.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Its a MADHOUSE

[Sofiyya 1,687]

That's about as thoroughly meaningless as response as it's possible to get.

But OK - have it your way: The opinion that defines current law does not classify abortion as murder. That too, is a fact.

It's only meaningless if you're unaware of your history or how laws are made. Opinion is changing against abortion, and that's a fact. Laws about it are changing, too, because one often follows the other.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It's only meaningless if you're unaware of your history or how laws are made. Opinion is changing against abortion, and that's a fact. Laws about it are changing, too, because one often follows the other.

Laws can and do change... You don't say

Let me break this down for you:

1. This thread relates to abortion in the UK and a government sponsored study that was commissioned because the government was thinking about changing the law to lower the limit from 24 weeks.

2. Abortion is currently legal in the UK up to 24 weeks, after 24 weeks serious medical complications must be evident to justify it.

3. The UK government is not lowering the limit from 24 weeks.

4. Abortion in the UK does not constitute "murder". If it did, the people who seek abortions would be charged with murder.

These are all facts. You may not like that - but your opinion, that abortion = murder is entirely irrelevant to this thread, no matter how much you want to twist it about and wrap it up in generalities.

[rika60607 215]

Delivery is very expensive in the US. Abortions much cheaper. I could never understand how pro-lifers are also usually the ones who believe that everyone is to foot their own maternity/delivery bill.

Add the social pressure - co-workers see the woman pregnant, go for delivery and then they ask about the baby and then the woman is left to say... oh yeah, I gave up my baby. Didn't want it in the first place.

I think it's fairly selfish of a woman to have an abortion at that stage when she could give birth and give it up for adoption. I know not everyone would agree, but at that point in viability, it seems rather cruel to the child. Especially in this country (USA) where there are many, many resources available to pregnant women free of charge.

[rika60607 215]

Abortion is a killing, but not murder.

Law does not tell you that abortion is right. Law only tells you it does not equal murder.

That's what you think if you are a moral relativist. You are a moral relativist, and I'm not. I don't depend on law to tell me what's right or wrong when it comes to human life That way, I'm not morally confused or in denial about it.

[rika60607 215]

You said you are mother to 6 kids.

You said you would never ever consider an abortion (aka killing your child in the womb), no matter semantics.

I pointed out that you are being um... either not entirely honest about it or not smart. One of the two.

After this response I am inclined to think that the latter is correct

I didn't have 7 pregnancies. I didn't have a miscarriage. I said nothing about choosing to die to avoid an abortion.

Did you read my post or just copy it and post what you're thinking that had nothing to do with what I actually said?

[Justine+David 218]

Delivery is very expensive in the US. Abortions much cheaper. I could never understand how pro-lifers are also usually the ones who believe that everyone is to foot their own maternity/delivery bill.

Add the social pressure - co-workers see the woman pregnant, go for delivery and then they ask about the baby and then the woman is left to say... oh yeah, I gave up my baby. Didn't want it in the first place.

Um...like I said. There are many, many resources available for pregnant women AND after the delivery process...ever heard of WIC? I would know...since I work with that population in my career.

So, the woman should abort her kid who is able to survive outside the womb solely because she's worried about what her co-workers think if she gave up the baby? Methinks that's a little silly

[_Simpson_ 250]

Moderators, suspend me if you must, but do not make any comments or this thread invisible. I stand by what I said and I wish to not have anyone hide behind the cloak of 'invisibility' where a know it all, trolling, antagonistic remark was met with my STFU response. Let them both stay out there for everyone to see.

Ty!

Personally I'm glad you shared the pic with us and I got to say you showed great restraint by only saying STFU. Cleo was being very rude and her comment IMO was uncalled for

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

LONDON — British health experts say the human fetus cannot feel pain before the age of 24 weeks, so there is no reason to change the country's abortion laws.

The government-commissioned study is a setback for anti-abortion activists, who want the country's current 24-week time limit for terminations reduced.

The study says that nerve connections in the brain are not sufficiently formed to allow pain perception before 24 weeks.

The study by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, published Friday, was recommended by lawmakers who are considering lowering the abortion limit.

The doctors say there is increasing evidence that even after 24 weeks the fetus is in a state of "continuous sleep-like unconsciousness or sedation."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,595284,00.html?test=latestnews

There is no need to change the law because there is no need for the government to force one group of people to follow the beliefs of another group of people.

I am PRO CHOICE and I am anti-abortion. It means I would never want my wife to kill a child we conceived and that I will meet by obligations if we do. I do not, however, believe that MY belief should be forced BY LAW on other people.

Most people who claim to be pro-choice are not, most people that claim to be pro-life are not. They choose good sounding euphamisms that are in no way related to their actual beliefs regarding choice or life.

How may "pro-lifers" support a Gay couples right to marry? So much for their life. Screw their life. How many don't want a murderer executed?

How many "pro-choicers" believe a woman should be able to defend the children they DON'T abort with a concealed handgun? How many think that a woman should be able to choose which school she sends her children to...and her tax dollars?

I am pro-choice on everything.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Your process of reason tries to connect entirely unrelated things. It's very odd.

[Susita 175]

Amby, tsk tsk, you should have known better with this abortion thread. We both know they go on for pages and pages and pages and nothing good comes from them.

Stick with the ####### threads