fetus can't feel pain before 24 weeks

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Because as stated numerous times, that's exactly what we did. And we faced the situation head on. That's what you're missing.

Yes, but you have not had to face the worst case scenario that would require you to challenge your preconceptions.

I am glad you haven't - but until you have you cannot claim with authority that you would know what you would do. That is all I have been saying.

[Fandango 1,439]

Yes, but you have not had to face the worst case scenario that would require you to challenge your preconceptions.

I am glad you haven't - but until you have you cannot claim with authority that you would know what you would do. That is all I have been saying.

OF COURSE I challenged my preconceptions!

I won't repeat myself again here. Scroll up to my past posts to you and reread and maybe you will understand what I'm saying. Maybe you won't, until if/when you ever find yourself expecting. It's not even for you to question, tbh. And it's not even relevant to the conversation either, because my stance is not about what others should do in specific circumstances. Why you're banging this drum is beyond me, but I'm a bit disappointed you can't see where your presumption is completely offensive.

Telling me, or assuming any parent in my shoes who made the choice I did based on similar reasons is 'sidestepping making the difficult choices' is probably the most offensive thing I've heard in quite some time. It's just as wrong as saying i cannot claim with authority what I would do, because I already made my choice based upon those factors.

And again, yes, I admit I'm sure you're not meaning to offend. End result is still the same though.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Happy Bunny

[chri'stina 190]

I haven't read every post since this is 10 pages long. But I find the info from the article hard to believe. I am very much against abortion anyway. I do remember my 20 week u/s to find out the gender, the baby looked so big and was definitely not liking being poked. I find it horrifying that people think it's ok to abort babies that big.

While I may understand extremely hard reasons some would consider an abortion, I would not support it myself and would think it's killing no matter why it's being done. Sometimes someone might feel it's better for the fetus to be killed instead of living a life that might be hard for them but that doesn't make it not killing a fetus.

I find it ridiculous though when people act as if most abortions are for severe reasons and how dare we questions the women's choice...yeah right. How noble of a choice.

[chri'stina 190]

I think posting an ultrasound of a baby in such a thread as this is totally justified. It's the reality of a baby inside the womb. We can't just ignore what a child at around 24 weeks looks like since they are saying it can't feel pain.

[The_Dude 1,142]

I haven't read every post since this is 10 pages long. But I find the info from the article hard to believe. I am very much against abortion anyway. I do remember my 20 week u/s to find out the gender, the baby looked so big and was definitely not liking being poked. I find it horrifying that people think it's ok to abort babies that big.

While I may understand extremely hard reasons some would consider an abortion, I would not support it myself and would think it's killing no matter why it's being done. Sometimes someone might feel it's better for the fetus to be killed instead of living a life that might be hard for them but that doesn't make it not killing a fetus.

I find it ridiculous though when people act as if most abortions are for severe reasons and how dare we questions the women's choice...yeah right. How noble of a choice.

That is just your moral judgement. Your religous based morality does not apply everyone. I find it absurd that people would impose their morality upon a population at large, despite science. I'm sorry, no disrespect to anyone, but I will take the word of science research over anecdotes.

[chri'stina 190]

That is just your moral judgement. Your religous based morality does not apply everyone. I find it absurd that people would impose their morality upon a population at large, despite science. I'm sorry, no disrespect to anyone, but I will take the word of science research over anecdotes.

I don't think you have to be religious to realize what abortion really is. Yes that does influence me, but it's funny how it's considered a bad thing that I care about the forming child's life. Oh it's because I don't support the woman's right to abort. The women are treated much more important than the forming child. I treat a human like a human, and don't think a forming one has any less importance than a grown one.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

I haven't read every post since this is 10 pages long. But I find the info from the article hard to believe. I am very much against abortion anyway. I do remember my 20 week u/s to find out the gender, the baby looked so big and was definitely not liking being poked. I find it horrifying that people think it's ok to abort babies that big.

While I may understand extremely hard reasons some would consider an abortion, I would not support it myself and would think it's killing no matter why it's being done. Sometimes someone might feel it's better for the fetus to be killed instead of living a life that might be hard for them but that doesn't make it not killing a fetus.

I find it ridiculous though when people act as if most abortions are for severe reasons and how dare we questions the women's choice...yeah right. How noble of a choice.

I've stayed away from this debate, because I respect more than a few people who are posting in here and I don't want to poke the hornet's nest anymore. I've outed myself recently as a new singleton who's choosing to stay on VJ anyway, so I really don't give a toss what people think about me on here.

In any of these debates on abortion that turn up from time to time, I notice a distinct lack of women posting on here who speak from the experience of having had an abortion. It's a very common procedure, so I assume that these women are just not speaking up for fear of being judged. Well, here I am. I've had two. And I was married when I had both of them. Neither of these were decisions that I made lightly, and they were made with the support of my then-husband. I do not regret either procedure -- it was right for us at the time. I agonised over whether what I was doing was right, but ultimately I knew that I was not willing, ready or emotionally capable of being a mother at that time, and I did not want to carry a child to term and put it up for adoption. I am more than my womb.

Sometimes do I wonder what the putative children would have been like? Yes, I'm not a complete automaton, devoid of emotion or vague intimations towards maternal instinct. But I chose to put myself and my husband first because we were not ready. Go ahead and judge away, call me selfish and heartless, call me what you like. I just feel that people who believe that women do this blithely -- even when it's not for "severe reasons" -- are not seeing the full picture.

[chri'stina 190]

Well I appreciate your honesty and sharing that.

Like you said many who may have had abortions might not enter the conversation, I think many who also oppose abortion (and could have possibly had one a regretted it) might not enter the conversation either. It usually comes down to the same people arguing things over and over. Some get tired of it, like I usually do, but still write sometimes. Others may not want to look a certain way, in either side of the argument, and just avoid posting to avoid conflict or to not look uncool. That stinks but I guess it sometimes is better to not have to have a discussion in off topic because some people are just rude to those who disagree with them(on both sides of all the issues!).

Edited June 25, 2010 by chri'stina

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

I can respect that we can disagree on this issue. It's fine; we'll never convince each other. But the abortion debates on VJ always devolve into invective and personal attack, as if those on either side think they have a chance of changing someone's mind. If someone does alter their views, it sure ain't gonna be from a debate on VJ!

[Jenn! 918]

Apologies for not following the entire thread so if I'm restating plz tell me. Anyway there are many life forms that respond to stimuli but don't have pain receptors.

yeah like lobsters! nom nom nom

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

yeah like lobsters! nom nom nom

Here is your random VJ fact for the day - Nazi Germany made it illegal to boil lobsters alive because they were afraid it felt pain..........

Edited June 25, 2010 by Sousuke

[Jenn! 918]

[GabiandVi 34]

Yes, that's exactly what I said and I meant it. You can believe I am deluded as much as you like and you can believe what you like about my motives. Whether or not that was 'dramatic' I have no idea, but what would be the point of 'fabricated outrage' in this instance?

It's so effective to show concern for the poster of the picture by coming out both barrels blasting, trying to belittle her choice to do so. It's not like if you are genuinely concerned you can PM her or suggest gently in the thread that you hope no one abuses her or her child. That would make too much sense, wouldn't it? Why fabricate outrage? I don't know. Because it's a bullying technique?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

OF COURSE I challenged my preconceptions!

I won't repeat myself again here. Scroll up to my past posts to you and reread and maybe you will understand what I'm saying. Maybe you won't, until if/when you ever find yourself expecting. It's not even for you to question, tbh. And it's not even relevant to the conversation either, because my stance is not about what others should do in specific circumstances. Why you're banging this drum is beyond me, but I'm a bit disappointed you can't see where your presumption is completely offensive.

Telling me, or assuming any parent in my shoes who made the choice I did based on similar reasons is 'sidestepping making the difficult choices' is probably the most offensive thing I've heard in quite some time. It's just as wrong as saying i cannot claim with authority what I would do, because I already made my choice based upon those factors.

And again, yes, I admit I'm sure you're not meaning to offend. End result is still the same though.

Only if you choose to be offended. I have no personal issue with you, only the contention that you know would act in a certain way without having faced the situation that would require you to challenge your preconceptions.

[Fandango 1,439]

Let's just put this to bed here and now. 'Science' is not the be-all end-all.

Nerve fibers designed to sense pain are present in a fetus's skin seven or eight weeks after conception, said Dr. Terence Zach, chairman of pediatrics at the Creighton University School of Medicine.

Surely by 20 weeks, Zach said, a fetus is mature enough to respond to what scientists call “noxious stimuli,” or pain.

“I believe that — yep,” said Zach, who described himself as pro-life.

Another Omaha physician, Dr. Robert Bonebrake, agrees with Zach. Bonebrake, a perinatologist at Methodist Hospital, sometimes must give blood transfusions to fetuses or drain fluid from them at 21 or 22 weeks.

Those procedures involve inserting a needle or shunt into the fetus. Bonebrake said the fetus will “back away a little bit” from the needle, indicating to him that it has felt the jab.

“He or she will try to move away if possible,” said Bonebrake, who also described himself as pro-life.

But in a review of fetal pain literature, University of California-San Francisco physicians reported in 2005 that “fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester,” or about 27 weeks into the pregnancy.

The review, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, said reflex movement isn't proof of pain, because it can occur without the brain being developed enough for conscious pain recognition.

The article also stated that only 1.4 percent of abortions in the U.S. occur at or after 21 weeks.

In Nebraska, fetal age doesn't have to be reported and usually isn't, according to a state health spokeswoman. But in cases where it was reported, none of the abortions that occurred in Nebraska in 2008 involved fetuses of 20 weeks or older.

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists' position is that it “knows of no legitimate scientific information that supports the statement that a fetus experiences pain at 20 weeks' gestation.”

A Children's Hospital Boston anesthesiologist and researcher, Dr. Roland Brusseau, has studied the subject to determine whether a fetus undergoing a surgical procedure should have anesthesia. His institution is the main children's hospital of Harvard Medical School.

Brusseau calls discussions of fetal pain “complicated and controversial.”

He has suggested a broad timeline for when fetal pain might start: “If we are to accept that consciousness is possible by 20 weeks (or more conservatively, 30 weeks), then it also would appear possible that fetuses could experience something approximating ‘pain,'” he wrote a little more than three years ago.

The possibility, he said, would appear to mandate the use of appropriate anesthesia when performing fetal surgery.

Federal legislation has been unsuccessfully introduced over the past several years to require abortion providers to inform the mother that the fetus could feel pain at 20 weeks and offer anesthesia directly to the fetus.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20100214/NEWS01/702149910

How do we know that unborn children can feel pain?

Individuals seeking to dismiss the claim that an unborn child can feel pain often argue that we can’t really know if a fetus experiences pain because the fetus cannot communicate with us. Yet, such arguments ignore several facts: 1)By the sixth week of gestation unborn children can respond to touch and have pain receptors in place. 2)Surgeons performing prenatal surgery other than abortion routinely administer anesthesia directly to the unborn child. 3)According to Dr. Kanwaljeet S. Anand, a prominent pain researcher at the University of Arkansas, scientists agree that “the fetus possesses excitatory pain mechanisms (receptors and fibers that recognize and respond to painful stimuli) before twenty weeks of gestation” and that nerve fibers are sensitive to pain well before an unborn child is born (Testimony before U.S. Federal Court, 2003, http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/Fetal_Pain/AnandPainReport.pdf ).

Because at twenty weeks of gestation all pain receptors and anatomical links to the brain for feeling pain are in place in the developing unborn child, twenty weeks’ gestation has been considered the beginning point for feeling pain in proposed legislation and in court testimony. A wealth of statements has been given by doctors to reinforce this claim. Dr. Robert J. White, professor of neurosurgery at Case Western Reserve University, has affirmed that an unborn child at twenty weeks gestation is “fully capable of experiencing pain…. [W]ithout question [abortion] is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant subjected to such a surgical procedure” (National Right to Life Committee http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/Fetal_Pain/FetalPain091604.pdf ).

Furthermore, doctors have stated that the pain an unborn child may experience between twenty and thirty weeks of gestation is actually greater than the pain he may feel at any other point in pregnancy or post pregnancy. Dr. Kanwaljeet S. Anand has stated, “The highest density of pain receptors per square inch of skin in human development occurs in utero from twenty to thirty weeks of gestation,” thus making these unborn children especially sensitive to any surgical procedure (Testimony before U.S. Federal Court, 2003, http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/Fetal_Pain/AnandPainReport.pdf ).

Similarly, Dr. Paul Ranalli at the Neuroscience Department at the University of Toronto has stated, “Far from being less able to feel pain, such premature newborns may be more sensitive to pain,” and babies under thirty weeks’ gestation have a “newly established pain system that is raw and unmodified at this tender age.” (National Right to Life Committee http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/Fetal_Pain/FetalPain091604.pdf.)

http://www.cwalac.org/article_548.shtml

Here's a page with links with conflicting science with ranges from 8 weeks to 28 weeks http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain2.htm

Also, ask yourself why fetal anesthesia is used, if they don't feel pain?

We can get into a link war, but at the end of the day, if the damn scientists don't even agree, then how the hell are we supposed to?