Dual Citizenship

[NickD 203]

Well, we are now entering a completely different aspect: getting away with a crime.

It's quite different from something being legal. Fact is, a Ukrainian citizen who becomes a naturalized citizen of another country is not a Ukrainian citizen anymore. Bribe may only help to look the other way, but it can't change the country's fundamental laws which are unmistakably clear about this.

USCIS on some forms and the DOS calls it expedient service, I didn't even infer on breaking any laws, just getting expedient service either on top of the table or under it. Same difference, still money out of your pocket. A rose by any other name, is still a rose.

[v333k 59]

Bribery exists no matter where... in some countries much more visible and tolerated by officials, while other countries slab a label on it and go on with their lives.

I think the fundamental problem here is no the fact that people are getting away (or trying to get away) with keeping both nationalities, but it is the complete and utter disregard for the US oath one takes during the naturalization process. If the oath is taken seriously, then the person should gladly and willingly agree to give up their previous citizenship (whether they have to or not is a different topic). When a person goes to so many lengths to retain their previous citizenship, it only exposes that the citizenship obtained in the US is a convenience and nothing else.

[mbmw 0]

Based on the U.S. Department of State regulation on dual citizenship (7 FAM 1162), the Supreme Court of the United States has stated that dual citizenship is a "status long recognized in the law" and that "a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both. The mere fact he asserts the rights of one citizenship does not without more mean that he renounces the other," (Kawakita v. U.S., 343 U.S. 717) (1952). In Schneider v. Rusk 377 U.S. 163 (1964), the US Supreme Court ruled that a naturalized U.S. citizen has the right to return to his native country and to resume his former citizenship, and also to remain a U.S. citizen even if he never returns to the United States.

The Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) neither defines dual citizenship nor takes a position for it or against it. There has been no prohibition against dual citizenship, but some provisions of the INA and earlier U.S. nationality laws were designed to reduce situations in which dual citizenship exists. Although naturalizing citizens are required to undertake an oath renouncing previous allegiances, the oath has never been enforced to require the actual termination of original citizenship.[23]

Although the U.S. Government does not endorse dual citizenship as a matter of policy, it recognizes the existence of dual citizenship and completely tolerates the maintenance of multiple citizenship by U.S. citizens. In the past, claims of other countries on dual-national U.S. citizens sometimes placed them in situations where their obligations to one country were in conflict with the laws of the other. However, as fewer countries require military service and most base other obligations, such as the payment of taxes, on residence and not citizenship, these conflicts have become less frequent. As a result, there has been a dramatic increase in recent years in the number of people who maintain U.S. citizenship in other countries.

One circumstance where dual citizenship may run counter to expectations of government agencies is in matters of security clearance. Any person granted a Yankee White vetting must be absolutely free of foreign influence, and for other security clearances one of the grounds that may result in a rejected application is an actual or potential conflict of national allegiances.

[CaptainPenguin 5]

Any person granted a Yankee White vetting must be absolutely free of foreign influence, and for other security clearances one of the grounds that may result in a rejected application is an actual or potential conflict of national allegiances.

It is actually pretty funny that you bring this up as there have been several exceptions to this rule, I can from the top of my head mention four people with Yankee White clearance who held foreign citizenships while working closely with the President:

Rahm Emmanuel for Obama (Israeli)

Ari Fleischer for Bush (Israeli)

Zbigniew Brzezinski for Carter (Polish)

Henry Kissinger for Nixon and Ford (German and Israeli)

[whodat 0]

What about a US born citizan that goes to, lets say Turkey. He decides to become a Turkey citizen. Will the US take his US citiznship away ?

Thanks

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

The citizenship of a natural-born USC can't be taken away easily. Either there's clear intent to renounce it due to action that implicate such intent, or unless something that can be construed as treason has taken place. So if a USC joins the Taliban and takes on Afghan citizenship, there might be such a case.

What would need to be explored is whether or not Turkey would require the US-born citizen to renounce his US citizenship when becoming a citizen of Turkey. The Turkish members on this board should know that.

[antda 13]

Hi Everyone,

I like NickD and his wife find myself in a similar awakward situation too (as mentioned in my former posts...), in regards to the DOS with their insistence on keeping a 'other (not Canada) country of birth' on a US Passport...

I am American by all means, and yes, I do take my citizenship oath seriously.....

And no, US Citizenship was not a matter of convenience for me and my family...

Rather, it was a long and thought-out decision, which involved a lot of time, effort, and finances......

Lol...With all the ####### that I've had to go through with the USCIS..That was certainly not convenient at all!

However, by them INSISTING on putting my former birth country down on my passport and other documents, this is kind of like saying I am not an American, just like any natural-born American, which is unfair and discriminatory in that regard....

So isn't that also contradictory to the oath of citizenship that one goes through when they become naturalized, and whereby one says to 'give up allegances to other countries'?

How can one give up allegiances to former countries, when a former country is mentioned on an important document such as a passport?

If the DOS omits the 'other birth country' on my future US Passport, I will gladly and willingly give up my Canadian passport and get an American Passport instead. Until then, I am a naturalized American, but I'm still travelling with my Canadian Passport, which has a 'blank' birth country line on it, and I feel safer and more comfortable by travelling with such instead....

Bottom line: Lol..You INSIST on keeping by former (other) birth country on my passport...Which I don't agree with....

Then I INSIST on keeping my former country of citizenship's (Canada) passport....Which you don't agree with...

It works both ways... (and yes, it's legal too...)

Ant

Certainly an awkward situation if not a very confusing one. With Colombia, they claim to encourage people born in that country and citizens of another country to maintain their citizenship status and use a Colombian passport to enter that country and to contact your USA based for further information. But will let you enter their country with a US passport.

So I did contact the Chicago consulate and they said my wife must have a Colombian passport, we also told that to their guard or whatever at the POE, he said the same thing. While you can't tell my wife from any other Caucasian American, dresses, speaks, and looks like an American, is of European descent, pardon my language, but that god-damned DOS place of birth gives that away. So we are dealing both with a country that has officials that don't know their laws, and our own country that won't give my wife full citizenship privileges.

When down there, speaking to what authorities we could speak to outside of a court of law, asked to see that law printed in their books along with another so-called annoying law. And searched deep on the internet for some honest positive answers to my questions. Came up with zero, but started up a file that you have to do nowadays with proof of what you are up against when dealing with governments, and that includes ours as well.

In a corrupt country like Colombia, one has to give money under the table to get anything done in a timely manner, like getting corrections made in a birth certificate that they made, dumb basterds don't even know how to type, but you have to pay dearly to get that corrected or wait years. Paid that to get my wife here. but said the hell with her passport and ID application.

And if you want justice here, you better enclose a champaign contribution check to your congressman or your letter will be ignored. Complained about the awkward position our DOS puts us in with that place of birth, didn't enclose a contribution check, so it was ignored.

If you read the DOS position on dual nationality, its all BS, they are the ones that are creating this problem, or at least partially responsible. Wife does not want to be a Colombian citizen, just wants to visit her mom, and to do so, have to put up with a huge pile of #######.

USA wants to spend 6 billion bucks in Colombia in an effort to control the drug traffic, Hugo is reading this as an act of war against Venezuela and war may break out. We have both friends and relatives in both countries, and its us common hard working honest people that will be paying the price. When I visit Washington D.C., get totally disgusted with the wealth our leadership is living it, hurts even more when the IRS comes over and complaints about a $1.63 invoice for tax reasons.

Bribery exists no matter where... in some countries much more visible and tolerated by officials, while other countries slab a label on it and go on with their lives.

I think the fundamental problem here is no the fact that people are getting away (or trying to get away) with keeping both nationalities, but it is the complete and utter disregard for the US oath one takes during the naturalization process. If the oath is taken seriously, then the person should gladly and willingly agree to give up their previous citizenship (whether they have to or not is a different topic). When a person goes to so many lengths to retain their previous citizenship, it only exposes that the citizenship obtained in the US is a convenience and nothing else.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[NickD 203]

No response whatsoever from my president, congressman, or senator on this subject. Or is that someone else's president, congressman, or senator like someone with more money than me.

So I sent a letter directly to the DOS on this subject and the hardship it causes, and the simple fact that no person has a say where they were born, but to have a say when an adult of which country they want to be allegiant to. Granted, the USA has no say on the rules of different countries, but they are sure not helping the situation with that place of birth thing.

I am not holding my breathe expecting a response, we were way above board in our dealings with both the USCIS and the DOS but do not feel this is mutual. See what happens, gives me another reason to looking forward to my mailman.

[antda 13]

No response whatsoever from my president, congressman, or senator on this subject. Or is that someone else's president, congressman, or senator like someone with more money than me.

So I sent a letter directly to the DOS on this subject and the hardship it causes, and the simple fact that no person has a say where they were born, but to have a say when an adult of which country they want to be allegiant to. Granted, the USA has no say on the rules of different countries, but they are sure not helping the situation with that place of birth thing.

I am not holding my breathe expecting a response, we were way above board in our dealings with both the USCIS and the DOS but do not feel this is mutual. See what happens, gives me another reason to looking forward to my mailman.

NickD-No surprise that you didn't have too much of a response about this subject, especially considering that they are the ones that are contributing to the problem (lol..for all I know, maybe it is the USA that set the standards for having a birth place on a passport...). Nevertheless, it's great that you brought this issue up, and at least made them aware of such, and who knows, someday they might actually respond and do make these changes...Until then, hope you get good mail from your mailman too...

Ant

P.S. True, there are lots of rules in the USA that are different from other countries...But that doesn't make these rules right either....However, here in America there is something called "freedom of speech", and we have a right to speak up against these rules. So to everyone: If you feel that something isn't right, don't be afraid to speak up, no matter how major or minor the issue may be! As who knows, by more people speaking up about the issues, than positive changes can occur.....

Edited June 23, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[NickD 203]

NickD-No surprise that you didn't have too much of a response about this subject, especially considering that they are the ones that are contributing to the problem (lol..for all I know, maybe it is the USA that set the standards for having a birth place on a passport...). Nevertheless, it's great that you brought this issue up, and at least made them aware of such, and who knows, someday they might actually respond and do make these changes...Until then, hope you get good mail from your mailman too...

Ant

P.S. True, there are lots of rules in the USA that are different from other countries...But that doesn't make these rules right either....However, here in America there is something called "freedom of speech", and we have a right to speak up against these rules. So to everyone: If you feel that something isn't right, don't be afraid to speak up, no matter how major or minor the issue may be! As who knows, by more people speaking up about the issues, than positive changes can occur.....

We are suppose to be a government for and by the people, but it takes more than just voting for the least of two evils at election time, takes speaking up.

Perhaps a compromise can be reached, one easy one is at USCIS oath ceremonies is to tell the new citizens, they are NOT the same as natural born ones.

We do have an international drivers' license, perhaps an international passport as well between a group of countries, even at a steeper price so they can make more money.

Another would be by a group of countries, whereby our DOS can also issue a foreign passport since they insist you have one. And at their 9,100 some odd agencies, so you don't have to fly clear across the country to get one.

At least was some interest in this subject, did find a 1987 study on place of birth and learned out of 27 countries polled, only two objected to removing the place of birth. My wife's home country had no objection to removing place of birth from passports, but ironically, the opinion of the good old USA was not provided, so maybe they are the ones that objected. This study got nowhere, I posted this link on that long place of birth thread you started.

Did do extensive reading on this subject in the DOS, briefly, rather than them saying we are the cause of this problem, have developed a don't ask, don't tell attitude. I don't like that and apparently neither do the other 80% of Americans in a recent poll where they do not trust their government.

I can see where a Chinese person would have a problem visiting China, have no solution for that, but fortunately, we don't have that problem. That would have to be between China and our DOS to work that out, we could put an embargo on all Chinese imports, for instance.

[gthf 0]

Thanks to all the posts from people from various countries with multiple passports. Notice I didn't say dual citizens since that's a gray area. For us, those experiences are very helpful in making a decision about what to do when traveling and the pros/cons of getting US citizenship.

As far as the posts that got off tangent. How about answering the original question? If you have two cents to contribute, then by all means give your two cents. If you don't, then save your money. I particularly enjoy the so called experts comments. What makes you such an expert on the laws of certain countries? Did you write the laws? Laws are subjective and are open to interpretation. If one were to read some of the posts, one would think the laws are all completely objective with only one interpretation. In this case, the poster's interpretation.

As for us, we plan on applying for US citizenship and after getting a US passport just use that for traveling. When my wife's Ukrainian international passport expires we won't renew it. She can travel to Ukraine with no visa (right now) with a US passport, so why maintain 2 passports since it creates a gray area. 1 passport, 1 citizenship, there's no gray area. Otherwise, you have some braindead federal government employee having to think. Why not remove the thinking from the process? Then the federal government workers can do what they do best, go on sleeping through their workday. Perfect.

[NickD 203]

Thanks to all the posts from people from various countries with multiple passports. Notice I didn't say dual citizens since that's a gray area. For us, those experiences are very helpful in making a decision about what to do when traveling and the pros/cons of getting US citizenship.

As far as the posts that got off tangent. How about answering the original question? If you have two cents to contribute, then by all means give your two cents. If you don't, then save your money. I particularly enjoy the so called experts comments. What makes you such an expert on the laws of certain countries? Did you write the laws? Laws are subjective and are open to interpretation. If one were to read some of the posts, one would think the laws are all completely objective with only one interpretation. In this case, the poster's interpretation.

As for us, we plan on applying for US citizenship and after getting a US passport just use that for traveling. When my wife's Ukrainian international passport expires we won't renew it. She can travel to Ukraine with no visa (right now) with a US passport, so why maintain 2 passports since it creates a gray area. 1 passport, 1 citizenship, there's no gray area. Otherwise, you have some braindead federal government employee having to think. Why not remove the thinking from the process? Then the federal government workers can do what they do best, go on sleeping through their workday. Perfect.

Certainly a country dependent issue and for all I know, just that jerk at the POE gate is the issue. Wife has been traveling to Colombia for years with her Venezuelan passport with her place of birth listed as Colombia without any problems. And I traveled with her from the USA to Colombia with her Venezuelan passport without problems, but she sure needed her green card to come here. She was also stripped search coming here with a USA visa, but when with me, was treated with great courtesy when coming back here. Her greatest fear was always coming back here.

So on our very first visit to Colombia with her US passport, there is a problem. First our plane was two hours late, something about a problem with the pilots cigar lighter or some other lame excuse. With 300 aboard, we landed with another plane with 300 abroad, only two POE gates were open at 1:00 AM in the morning, each with 300 tired people waiting to get in. Maybe we chose the wrong line, but even with hundreds behind us, this guy made a big issue out of it stating my wife needs a Colombian passport since her US passport shows Colombia as her place of birth. Maybe this guy lost his job as a drug dealer with the recent cooperation of our governments to control this trade and he is taken it out on her.

But he sure managed to scare the hell out of my wife, so instead of visiting and relaxing, spend 3 miserable days chasing all over Bogota to get her Colombian ID renewed. They won't issue her a passport until she does.

Another issue we may have in Colombia is they may not recognize her foreign divorce and for a mere 5,000 bucks, we can get that corrected in their court of law. They just review the existing divorce, about three pages of it to make sure it complies with Colombian law. I also spoke to four different notaries on this subject, not one of them could provide me with their statues on this law, and each had different opinions. My solution, screw them, her divorce is fully recognized by the USA, and that is all to me that counts.

If I see a ragged looking guy on the street, say hello, and may even give me a buck for a cup of coffee. If I see a well dressed man on the street, put my hand over my wallet.