Dual Citizenship

[Sven 0]

Why would they detain a U.S citizen in Germany? Makes no sense. He can travel to Germany at any time as a visitor. I don't get this thread. Who cares if the U.S. recognizes other citizenships or not. You do not lose U.S citizenship. Period. To make it simple: Your wife would travel to the Ukraine using her Ukranian citizenship and when she travels back, she uses her American passport.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

To offer a clarification of the differences between countries recognizing dual citizenship and the US. I have citizenship in my birth country Canada and as a Naturalized American. Canada recognizes and allows their citizens to have citizenship in other countries at the same time as they have Canadian citizenship. The US does not - they view everyone as a US citizen regardless of whether they are also citizens in another country or not. The US is not able to take away or revoke another country's citizenship, and while they could force everyone taking out US citizenship to take the steps to renounce citizenship in the countries where they are also citizens, they do not. They just don't recognize it. The most obvious way this manifests for me is that if I travel outside of the US I can use either my Canadian or American passport for travel but I MUST use my American passport for re-entry to the US. I can use either my American or Canadian passport to travel to Canada and it does not affect my status as a Canadian. Canada recognizes me as both a Canadian and an American citizen.

Each country sets the laws that govern the citizenship requirements for themselves. Other countries do not have the authority to change those citizenship laws. They can, however, refuse to recognize them in certain circumstances, which is basically what the US does for 'dual' citizens living within the US. As far as the US is concerned - they are all only Americans.

As for the Ukraine - I would definitely accept Gary and Alla's advice on the Ukraine's stance on Ukraine citizens taking out US citizenship.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Kathryn41

[Redneck-NOVA 1]

Why would they detain a U.S citizen in Germany? Makes no sense. He can travel to Germany at any time as a visitor. I don't get this thread. Who cares if the U.S. recognizes other citizenships or not. You do not lose U.S citizenship. Period. To make it simple: Your wife would travel to the Ukraine using her Ukranian citizenship and when she travels back, she uses her American passport.

If you don't get this thread then you should read it agin. They detained this particular US Citizen in Germany because he commited a crime under German law. Using fraudulent documents to enter Germany is a crime, very simple. And a person who is no longer a German citizen trying to use German passport is commiting fraud. That's why he got arrested. Makes perfect sense. If you rob someone in Germany, you will be arrested if caught. US citizen or not - doesn't matter. Well, using fraudulent documents is a serious crime, just like robbery. Makes sense now?

And you CAN loose your US citizenship. It's very hard and unlikely but you can.

And once again, DON'T give people wrong advices if you don't know what you are talking about. His wife WILL NOT have Ukrainian citizenship any longer, as soon as she becomes a US citizen. Not under US law (US law doesn't govern Ukrainian citizenship), but under Ukrainian law. And if she attempts to use her Ukrainian passport to enter Ukraine, she can be in some serious trouble. Please read the thread again - all information is already here.

[antda 13]

Hi Everyone,

I was doing a search online, and I found the following information about dual nationality/citizenship for US Citizens, from the US government's point of view....

Hope this helps you all too!

Ant

Dual Nationality

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.

Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: http://travel.state....s/cis_1753.html

[Redneck-NOVA 1]

To offer a clarification of the differences between countries recognizing dual citizenship and the US. I have citizenship in my birth country Canada and as a Naturalized American. Canada recognizes and allows their citizens to have citizenship in other countries at the same time as they have Canadian citizenship. The US does not - they view everyone as a US citizen regardless of whether they are also citizens in another country or not. The US is not able to take away or revoke another country's citizenship, and while they could force everyone taking out US citizenship to take the steps to renounce citizenship in the countries where they are also citizens, they do not. They just don't recognize it. The most obvious way this manifests for me is that if I travel outside of the US I can use either my Canadian or American passport for travel but I MUST use my American passport for re-entry to the US. I can use either my American or Canadian passport to travel to Canada and it does not affect my status as a Canadian. Canada recognizes me as both a Canadian and an American citizen.

Each country sets the laws that govern the citizenship requirements for themselves. Other countries do not have the authority to change those citizenship laws. They can, however, refuse to recognize them in certain circumstances, which is basically what the US does for 'dual' citizens living within the US. As far as the US is concerned - they are all only Americans.

As for the Ukraine - I would definitely accept Gary and Alla's advice on the Ukraine's stance on Ukraine citizens taking out US citizenship.

Thank you, very good explanation.

+100

[antda 13]

P.S. From my own experiences.....

I'm a dual naturalized American citizen and a naturalized Canadian citizen.....

When I travel by land to Canada, I use my Canadian passport (with a "blank" for a birth country) and NYS Enhanced Driver's License...And declare "Canadian"....

When I travel by land back to the USA, I use my NYS Enhanced Driver's License....And declare "American"....

I have to maintain my Canadian passport because I cannot get an American passport, for various reasons, as mentioned in other VJ posts

But the EDL is good enough for me, my family, and the government for land travel purposes....We all don't have American passports, despite all being Americans..lol...

Nevertheless, I've had no problems travelling over the border by land this way, as a dual citizen of both the USA and Canada....

Hope this helps too. Good luck.

Ant

Edited June 18, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[antda 13]

To offer a clarification of the differences between countries recognizing dual citizenship and the US. I have citizenship in my birth country Canada and as a Naturalized American. Canada recognizes and allows their citizens to have citizenship in other countries at the same time as they have Canadian citizenship. The US does not - they view everyone as a US citizen regardless of whether they are also citizens in another country or not. The US is not able to take away or revoke another country's citizenship, and while they could force everyone taking out US citizenship to take the steps to renounce citizenship in the countries where they are also citizens, they do not. They just don't recognize it. The most obvious way this manifests for me is that if I travel outside of the US I can use either my Canadian or American passport for travel but I MUST use my American passport for re-entry to the US. I can use either my American or Canadian passport to travel to Canada and it does not affect my status as a Canadian. Canada recognizes me as both a Canadian and an American citizen.

Each country sets the laws that govern the citizenship requirements for themselves. Other countries do not have the authority to change those citizenship laws. They can, however, refuse to recognize them in certain circumstances, which is basically what the US does for 'dual' citizens living within the US. As far as the US is concerned - they are all only Americans.

Kathryn41-Very well said, indeed!

Canada= Canadian and American (yes, Canada recognizes dual/multiple citizenships)

American= American only (and nothing else...so they think........)

Ant

Edited June 18, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[Sven 0]

If you don't get this thread then you should read it agin. They detained this particular US Citizen in Germany because he commited a crime under German law. Using fraudulent documents to enter Germany is a crime, very simple. And a person who is no longer a German citizen trying to use German passport is commiting fraud. That's why he got arrested. Makes perfect sense. If you rob someone in Germany, you will be arrested if caught. US citizen or not - doesn't matter. Well, using fraudulent documents is a serious crime, just like robbery. Makes sense now?

And you CAN loose your US citizenship. It's very hard and unlikely but you can.

And once again, DON'T give people wrong advices if you don't know what you are talking about. His wife WILL NOT have Ukrainian citizenship any longer, as soon as she becomes a US citizen. Not under US law (US law doesn't govern Ukrainian citizenship), but under Ukrainian law. And if she attempts to use her Ukrainian passport to enter Ukraine, she can be in some serious trouble. Please read the thread again - all information is already here.

Don't give people wrong adivce.

[Meskal 0]

interesting topic...one can indeed have a few passports but it does not mean they are all "legal"

As stated:

"The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy"

"U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship"

The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause."

" (.travel.state.gov)

Our examples and input: I myself have dual nationality of Finland and Usa and do use both passports, depending on where in the world I travel. Finland passed a law 2003 allowing its citizens to have dual nationality status. So I can legally apply for new Finnish passports etc. I do file taxes to both countries. My Ethiopian -born son on the otherhand lost his Ethiopian nationality when he became Us and Finnish citizen (automatic) and cannot re-apply for a new Ethiopian passport after his exprires. (He can apply for Ethiopian ID card when grown up if he so chooses and basically have the same rights as a citizen.) So I would therefore never use his Ethiopian passport even though technically "valid" until expiration date, even when we travelled to Ethiopia, and applied a visa for him at the airport, whereas I use my Finnish one when travelling. (And to add the day he became Us and Finnish citizen, Finland would no longer issue a visa on his Ethiopian passport and would require a Finnish passport from that day on, which of course makes sense of course...we were in limbo to see if he can get a passport in time for our trip).And Finland of course can refuse to let me in country without a valid Finnish passport even though I am citizen same as I need US passport to enter Usa..

So to pull this all together, I guess, I would not use the Ukranian passport if Ukrania does not recognize one's U nationality after gaining Us citizenship. Why aks for trouble since it seems to be illegal....( imho).

[Meskal 0]

forgot to add links:

Here is a LINK about Ukranian citizenship law.

* applicants of Ukrainian background – may apply for a P-2 type Ukrainian visa in person and then are subjected to an interview at the Consular office of the Embassy of Ukraine. Applicants for type P-2 visas should submit the following documents:

o Applicant’s written request.

o Original Ukrainian birth certificate and a copy of it.

o If the last name on applicant’s passport and birth certificate is different the copy of the document of change of name is mandatory.

o Filled out application form.

o One recent passport size photograph.

o Valid passport.

o Self-addressed pre-paid envelope (Express Mail only) in case the documents need to be returned after the visa interview by mail.

Note: The Consular Office has full authority to evaluate and request more documents than were submitted by the applicant

And another link about this very question you had:

Ukranian "valid" passport

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

Sven,

if the original country of a newly naturalized USC (such as yourself) allows dual citizenship, there is no problem as long as both countries don't enter into a war against each other. (Then the Oath of Allegiance will be taken seriously.)

What we are talking about here is cases in which a naturalized USC lost his original citizenship (as it is the case with Ukraine, or even Germany without BBG), yet still uses his "old" passport to enter the old country.

That's document fraud and misrepresentation, a serious crime in the USA, the Ukraine, and in Germany. Such a person, if caught, will face a trial, criminal charges and in almost all cases a ban to reenter the country will be imposed. It happened to my friend.

So what does it take for them to find out? One letter of somebody who sends the information that the former country's citizen is a naturalized US citizen now. That can happen at any time; just think disgruntled spouse, betrayed friend, or fired co-worker. It's like one would always have to be afraid to be detected. I wouldn't want to find myself in such a situation for decades to come. I can imagine Ukrainian jails being not much fun for anybody.

[trailmix 77]

Are you reading what others posted above? Then why are you posting obviously incorrect things?

1) There is NO dual citizenship with the US. NONE. Just becasue you have another passport and another citizenship and US State Department doesn't care, does't make it dual citizenship

Countries don't have dual citizenship. People do.

[NickD 203]

Certainly an awkward situation if not a very confusing one. With Colombia, they claim to encourage people born in that country and citizens of another country to maintain their citizenship status and use a Colombian passport to enter that country and to contact your USA based for further information. But will let you enter their country with a US passport.

So I did contact the Chicago consulate and they said my wife must have a Colombian passport, we also told that to their guard or whatever at the POE, he said the same thing. While you can't tell my wife from any other Caucasian American, dresses, speaks, and looks like an American, is of European descent, pardon my language, but that god-damned DOS place of birth gives that away. So we are dealing both with a country that has officials that don't know their laws, and our own country that won't give my wife full citizenship privileges.

When down there, speaking to what authorities we could speak to outside of a court of law, asked to see that law printed in their books along with another so-called annoying law. And searched deep on the internet for some honest positive answers to my questions. Came up with zero, but started up a file that you have to do nowadays with proof of what you are up against when dealing with governments, and that includes ours as well.

In a corrupt country like Colombia, one has to give money under the table to get anything done in a timely manner, like getting corrections made in a birth certificate that they made, dumb basterds don't even know how to type, but you have to pay dearly to get that corrected or wait years. Paid that to get my wife here. but said the hell with her passport and ID application.

And if you want justice here, you better enclose a champaign contribution check to your congressman or your letter will be ignored. Complained about the awkward position our DOS puts us in with that place of birth, didn't enclose a contribution check, so it was ignored.

If you read the DOS position on dual nationality, its all BS, they are the ones that are creating this problem, or at least partially responsible. Wife does not want to be a Colombian citizen, just wants to visit her mom, and to do so, have to put up with a huge pile of #######.

USA wants to spend 6 billion bucks in Colombia in an effort to control the drug traffic, Hugo is reading this as an act of war against Venezuela and war may break out. We have both friends and relatives in both countries, and its us common hard working honest people that will be paying the price. When I visit Washington D.C., get totally disgusted with the wealth our leadership is living it, hurts even more when the IRS comes over and complaints about a $1.63 invoice for tax reasons.

[zqt3344 21]

Well Ukraine does not prohibit it either if you pay a tip.

You can renew your Russian passport here because Russia does no tprohibit dual citizenship with the United States. Ukraine does. Ukrainians wishing to keep both passports in violation of UKRAINIAN law, need to renew their Ukrainian passports in Ukraine and keep their mouths shut.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

Well, we are now entering a completely different aspect: getting away with a crime.

It's quite different from something being legal. Fact is, a Ukrainian citizen who becomes a naturalized citizen of another country is not a Ukrainian citizen anymore. Bribe may only help to look the other way, but it can't change the country's fundamental laws which are unmistakably clear about this.