Naturalization wobbles

[sachinky 465]

Do you know why naturalized citizens are ineligible to run for POTUS? Primarily, because of what Bob mentioned. Sounds a bit 'loony' but it's not. It is assumed that naturalized citizens do NOT feel the same allegiance towards the U.S. as a natural-born does and this becomes even more troubling in times of war. A naturalized USC (born in, say, Britain) POTUS isn't going to feel comfortable with the idea of bombing his hometown where he grew up, where he went to school. Where his sister and her family lives. It's why only natural born citizens are eligible to become POTUS. So that there is no troubling issue of 'dual allegiance' then. And no, this is not 'my opinion' -- this is political philosophy, and you can read it in a book written by smart people.

For me, these are the reasons I'd consider becoming a USC:

--Never have to deal with USCIS again. Seriously, who'd want to?

--Not have to worry about 'maintaining residency.' We'd love to live in India together for a few years and I want to be able to come and go as I like.

--Of course, this would only happen when India allows dual citizenship. I don't want to surrender my Indian passport--it's an irrational, sentimental reason and I can't explain it.

But that's precisely the reason. I love the U.S., I enjoy my time here. I love living here with my husband. I have a great many friends here who I consider very close. But I don't feel a strong, sentimental, unexplainable attachment to the U.S. as I do with India.

Just my two cents.

Hope you're able to make the 'right' decision -- whatever that may be for you!

Edited June 13, 2010 by sachinky

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

There are plenty of people here who are born and bred who feel little allegiance to this country. There are plenty of people who are naturalised here who feel much more than I do in terms of feeling like they belong to this country (I certainly don't feel at home most of the time -- I have had a bear of a time moving back and feel this is not my natural home). It may be the law but 99.99999% of us aren't going to be President nor do we want to be. It may be the law but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it, and since it is a matter of highly specialised administrative law it's pretty much a given most of us will never have to deal with it.

The argument at hand is whether someone who doesn't espouse full and unswerving obedience, like Alan, should take citizenship, not whether he should run for President. Personally, I'd be happy to have Alan as President.

[Fandango 1,439]

I don't think anthing that JB said was so off the wall...

[tmma 467]

I would not give up my birthright. But that's just me. My Mum who was a true Brit would have been overjoyed if I had ( I'm American) ; and seething with anger if my sister did ( she is born in UK, dual national).

I don't think Mark is going for naturalization. I can't say I blame him; besides we would like one day to retire to Europe.

none of this post makes sense...I need more coffee.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

Just read this whole thread and there are too many LOL moments to single out so this is for all of you who made me And.... oh great.... I have Ilkla Moor Baht 'at ringing in my head now.

I have been struggling with the naturalization process also. At first I thought it would be wonderful to be able to vote and to not have to be subjugated to the USCIS process and all that entails with each border crossing..... which is quite freqent as a Canadian citizen with numerous ties to that country. As I close in upon the date where I am eligible to apply I find the one thing which is keeping me from that is the fact that I will have to file a tax return each year until the day I die. That has turned out to be a huge stumbling block. I want to vote but I do not want to be obligated to file a return should I choose to return to Europe or Canada because I hate math and forms. bleh.

I love the US. It is a fantastic country with equally fantastic citizens. There are some crazies. But I find there are some crazies in Canada as well as the UK. Disregard the nonsense and the nuts that you come across on VJ and base your consideration on your gut instinct. The nuts do not represent or personify their country..... thank God. They only stick out because they are so puerile. You know that the US, as a whole, is not like that. I am aware that other parts of the wolrd have a dim view of the US. I grew up on the border and know that what is portrayed in the media and what is reality are two different things. I will be proud to be a US citizen. Providing I can get over the fact that I will have to be financially accountable to them for the rest of my life.

You've got to file taxes for a very long time (from abroad) even if you are 'just' an LPR. I researched it once and wouldn't swear to the details, but it's something like 8 years OR unless you officially abandon the residency.

You can Google to learn more.

[ValerieA 350]

There are plenty of people here who are born and bred who feel little allegiance to this country. There are plenty of people who are naturalised here who feel much more than I do in terms of feeling like they belong to this country (I certainly don't feel at home most of the time -- I have had a bear of a time moving back and feel this is not my natural home). It may be the law but 99.99999% of us aren't going to be President nor do we want to be. It may be the law but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it, and since it is a matter of highly specialised administrative law it's pretty much a given most of us will never have to deal with it.

The argument at hand is whether someone who doesn't espouse full and unswerving obedience, like Alan, should take citizenship, not whether he should run for President. Personally, I'd be happy to have Alan as President.

Alan for VJ President!

[Krikit 1,164]

You've got to file taxes for a very long time (from abroad) even if you are 'just' an LPR. I researched it once and wouldn't swear to the details, but it's something like 8 years OR unless you officially abandon the residency.

You can Google to learn more.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

I make it simpler for anyone to decide.

If becoming a naturalized US citizen would automatically require you to lose your 'original' citizenship (as it does in China, Denmark, India and Japan), and you would nonetheless go for it, you are clearly ready.

If you would not want to become a US citizen if that would imply giving up your 'old' citizenship, you cannot truthfully live up to the Oath of Allegiance, which is why you should not become a USC, despite the fact that you can. (That's some scholars' interpretation, not mine alone.)

And, yes, that is indded the underlying reason why naturalized USCs can't become President of the United States. On a related note, in Austria there's a legal process in the works to now strip Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger (dual citizen) of his Austrian citizenship despite the previously permission of 1983, as the Austrians disagree with some of his actions as a USC in public office.

Never say never. As I stated before, all it takes is a single signature on one executive order and bye-bye dual citizenship for all of us, myself included. Can happen in 1 year, 10, 20, or never. But the fact that it can happen alone is reason to seriously think about the 'what if' scenario before signing on the dotted line.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

So only people willing to completely give up ties to their country (i.e. their birth citizenship) should become US citizens? Only people willing to bomb their home towns in a potential war need apply?

Total codswollop.

[^_^ 5,021]

Total codswollop.

Oooh, kinky.

[TracyTN 237]

Alan, I've not read the entire thread, I'll admit. And perhaps my view on this is all too simplistic - but the only view I really have of it is that of my hubby's - and his is quite simple.

He plans to naturalize this year for a few reasons. First, if he and I ever decided to go back to England, and then wanted to come here again - we can do that without any further immigration woes. Plus we'll also stop forking out $ to USCIS every 10 years to renew his green card (likely just a matter of time until those fees go up again!). It's a means to an end.

Second, he has never been overly proud to be British (ok, World Cup time is an exception ). He had grown so tired of it - of becoming a minority in his own country, watching the quality of his life and his parents go downhill, etc and so on. But I also think he is a rarity in that he doesn't see becoming a US citizen as somehow making him 'less British'. I am starting to realize this is a HUGE issue for many, though - which really I don't get. No matter what he does or where he lives, he will be British until the day he dies. Even if he were to renounce his British citizenship - sorry - he was born a Blighter, will always be one. It doesn't somehow 'wash off'.

He also doesn't see becoming a USC as somehow now 'flying the flag' and being this overly patriotic quasi Yank. It just makes things a little more secure for us and our future, which we do plan to live out in this country, and he'd also like the chance to vote as we are going to live here long term. He'll still find some things we do weird and in some sense, won't ever really 'belong'. It's really just a means to an end to him.

As an aside, I also don't understand the 'one bad apple spoiling the lot' mentality. There are idiots and crazies in every part of the world. I really don't think Yanks have the corner market on it. You just see it more because that's where you now happen to live, and we are on this constant 24 hour news cycle. What else are they going to talk about? LOL.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Alan, I've not read the entire thread, I'll admit. And perhaps my view on this is all too simplistic - but the only view I really have of it is that of my hubby's - and his is quite simple.

He plans to naturalize this year for a few reasons. First, if he and I ever decided to go back to England, and then wanted to come here again - we can do that without any further immigration woes. Plus we'll also stop forking out $ to USCIS every 10 years to renew his green card (likely just a matter of time until those fees go up again!). It's a means to an end.

Second, he has never been overly proud to be British (ok, World Cup time is an exception ). He had grown so tired of it - of becoming a minority in his own country, watching the quality of his life and his parents go downhill, etc and so on. But I also think he is a rarity in that he doesn't see becoming a US citizen as somehow making him 'less British'. I am starting to realize this is a HUGE issue for many, though - which really I don't get. No matter what he does or where he lives, he will be British until the day he dies. Even if he were to renounce his British citizenship - sorry - he was born a Blighter, will always be one. It doesn't somehow 'wash off'.

He also doesn't see becoming a USC as somehow now 'flying the flag' and being this overly patriotic quasi Yank. It just makes things a little more secure for us and our future, which we do plan to live out in this country, and he'd also like the chance to vote as we are going to live here long term. He'll still find some things we do weird and in some sense, won't ever really 'belong'. It's really just a means to an end to him.

As an aside, I also don't understand the 'one bad apple spoiling the lot' mentality. There are idiots and crazies in every part of the world. I really don't think Yanks have the corner market on it. You just see it more because that's where you now happen to live, and we are on this constant 24 hour news cycle. What else are they going to talk about? LOL.

Tracy -- I think you put what I wanted to say in much more personal, much less reactionary terms.

[TracyTN 237]

Thanks! I credit hubby.

[^_^ 5,021]

He had grown so tired of it - of becoming a minority in his own country ...

Yes, I too wouldn't mind people of color (I'm as open minded as the next guy) if there were simply less of them. Don't they understand it's their role to be the minority? They've got some nerve, that's for sure!

[Captain Oates 911]

I have returned :

Some great posts over the weekend but many veered of into the naturalization debate rather than the post which asked about sports:

I was in sports bar in Lynwood, Washington to watch the match. It was not full - about 30 guys expecting to loose and therefore trying to make out they were not football fans. As soon as the USA scored they were jumping up and down and screeching like electrocuted bonobos.

Watching last night and one of the Slovak players was born in Germany of Slovak parents and was a US Citizen - he was therefore eligibility to play for 3 countries and he chose to play for Slovakia..

As far as the supporters and concerned, I think it's a red herring to say we support Countries who's football we like in preference to our own. I think people only do that when they have no 'skin in the fight'.

I sure didn't see Ghanaians supporting Slovakia.

I was pretty even handed in my applause in the sports bar - much to the surprise of of the USC who lives with me. I think I knew that England were likely to get through the group anyway and I would like to see football more popular in the US and that is why I applauded the US side. If it came to the final then it would be different.