Naturalization wobbles

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

The thing is, people get overly emotional when people criticize their country. If I were to take a step back and view what you said objectively, I would say you're completely right. The UK has a drinking culture that is unlike any other - it's not unusual to drink alcohol every day in different circumstances as to us, it's a social practice. We have more binge drinking than anywhere else in Europe. And we also take football extremely seriously. Put those together, and you get the stereotype about our violent hooligans. It wouldn't be fair to say that all British people are alcoholic hooligans, but there is an element of truth to it.

In the same way, most people around the world view Americans as extremely patriotic - not in the good way of being proud of their country - but in the ignorant and cocky way. And even though not every person is like that, there is an element of truth to that as well. Never in my life have I seen so many flags on a street, so many references to the country and its greatness, such a lack of awareness about the world, such a separation between laws and country, and I live in New England which is supposedly not so bad. Every time I hear someone over here saying that America is great for freedom, I always speak up and point out that there are plenty of other countries that have MORE freedom. The response is always to compare it with Middle Eastern countries, but there's nothing new there. Canada, every country in Europe, Australia, NZ, Japan, etc... these all have the same freedom (if not more), yet the only country that boasts about this is America.

I'm not trying to put Americans down, and there's nothing wrong with being patriotic. But there is a difference in being proud of your country, and being ignorant to other ones, and I think the concept of America to most around the world is that they have issues with the second. Whether you take that stereotype as valid or not is up to you. Excuse me while I go back to my vodka and run through the streets screaming with rage at England's performance last week.

More flags than St. George crosses during the World Cup - I find that hard to believe!

I'm not saying that's not true, but what I get from a lot of what Alan says is that Americans are the sum of our worst stereotypes which he bring up again and again. If you go looking for them, you will find them, but you risk losing out on a lot of what makes America unique and special (and I mean that in a non-exceptionalist, non-nationalistic way)

It's absolutely true that there is a drinking culture in England and it can sometimes has dire social consequences. Drinking is even more common than flags on American streets. Should outsiders reduce to its worst cultural stereotypes? They would miss out on a lot if they did.

[TracyTN 237]

So my comment meant I didn't care how others view us? What I actually meant was perceptions aren't always reality, no matter how many people have them.

It irks me that some Americans are this way, but what can I do to change it? All I can do is NOT be that way, and try to encourage a better 'world view' in those around me. But I certainly can't control what other people do or think, or certainly how our government is run (other than vote against those whom I perceive to be that way). I can't change that anymore than I can change the perceptions of those around the world (and on this board apparently).

I truly do not know why you're here if this is such a piss poor country with annoying #### people in it. (Aside from your 'my partner is here and it doesn't rain as much and it's easy to park and the cars and houses etc are cheap' answer.) Really - you must stay miserable.

I'm convinced that you SHOULDN'T apply for citizenship. Why would you want to be a citizen of a country you hold in such low esteem? I wouldn't. So really, this thread should die it's own death now, as we seemed to have solved the original riddle within.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

. Excuse me while I go back to my vodka and run through the streets screaming with rage at England's performance last week.

May I join you? It's only 9.30am here but I could do with a drink and some rampaging.

[Fandango 1,439]

Tracy and Robin, I you.

[TracyTN 237]

[Captain Oates 911]

More flags than St. George crosses during the World Cup - I find that hard to believe!

I'm not saying that's not true, but what I get from a lot of what Alan says is that Americans are the sum of our worst stereotypes which he bring up again and again. If you go looking for them, you will find them, but you risk losing out on a lot of what makes America unique and special (and I mean that in a non-exceptionalist, non-nationalistic way)

It's absolutely true that there is a drinking culture in England and it can sometimes has dire social consequences. Drinking is even more common than flags on American streets. Should outsiders reduce to its worst cultural stereotypes? They would miss out on a lot if they did.

Lot of truth in that - I really dislike the council house culture in England, though I lived in a council house for 10 years while I was doing my professional qualifications.

I would do everything I could to steer American tourists away from those areas as they embarrass me. So yes it's wrong to judge a country by the worst of it's citizens.

However, (wait for it), the scum in England is usually at the bottom of the barrel and is less apparent as one rises through society. The US has many absolutely deadly, menacing, violent, extreme right wing, overly nationalistic people right up there in the spotlight and involved in setting the direction of the country and the running of it.

In the US, the scum and the cream rises to the top .

I was just watching telly and the BP CEO being grilled. It was like our house in that the Americans couldn't understand him as he spoke in quiet measured sophisticated English tones whereas they were shouting and name calling like a bunch of blood lustful baboons out hunting. Getting one guy there with hundreds of people forming a crow's court around him, refusing to hear his full answers and saying things like 'from what you know, anybody in this room could do your job'. Berating him in turns and not allowing him to defend himself. He has worked in the very senior management of BP for 28 years and had a PHD in Geology and they treat him like some Mississippi field worker. Disgraceful - what power crazed nasty bullies.

jeez culture difference ? It's as big as the galaxy. My decision stays the same - I will take what the US has to give, and I will give back all I have to give - but as far as changing my personal culture over to thinking that this is ok - no way !

[Fandango 1,439]

Oh, and if I had a penny for *every time* I heard 'The British Empire was the best in all of the world' I'd be a wealthy woman.

There is NOTHING wrong with being proud of your country! Sheesh! Yes, many Americans are not fully aware of what goes on around the world, this is true. But look at the mass size of America. Look at the mass of other countries. Do you not think that if we were the same size, instead of hearing on the news about something that happened in Minnesota (when you live in FL or elsewhere), that we'd be hearing more about neighboring countries? We are easily picked on for this because of the stereotype of the 'ignorant redneck' who doesn't see past his dirt road, but compare him to the chav family in anywhere, UK who only cares about Kappa tracksuits and fake Burberry. They are on par with one another. The difference is, we simply have more of them. Percentage wise, I'd be interested to see the comparison though.

Of course, this has all been mentioned before, but at the same time...we're supposed to apologize for the amount of flags people wave? Where patriotism is a bad thing? Are we awesome? Yeah we are!! I am proud of my country, warts and all. You can come here with nothing and make something of yourself. Happens all the time.... I don't hear of that so often elsewhere.

I remember when I lived in the UK, there was this Muslim scholar or so living in Leeds who preached about how ####### the UK was. You know what the Sun did? Went to his house with a plane ticket and said 'if you hate it that much, leave'. I see no difference to how Americans react to people bashing our country. Why shouldn't people be proud, think they are born in the best country in the world? I would expect any citizen of any free country to feel the same. But, if we are loud and proud Americans, we're 'crass' and 'ignorant', 'rude', and the like.

SOOOO offensive:

the US devalues every country in the world and doesn't care

. I see more charities and the like for other countries all the time here. I see missionaries, protests for foreign injustice...hell, when I was in college, we picketed outside Toys R Us because of the unfair working conditions in China where the toys were made. Countrywise, we're in a depression that's incredible, yet we send relief money everywhere, even when our own country men and women are starving. Yet, 'we don't care'. Where did this ridiculous notion come from???? And WHAT THE FUQUE, I say!

Alan, I do have to point out that in this thread alone, you've contradicted yourself. Yes, I'm being a bit pedantic, but at the same time, you have said several times about how we go on about 'free speech' and how it's no different than other countries, but then go on to say that you are shocked that there are not enough hate-speech laws. I'd like to know how you can ride both sides of the same argument.

I am tired of the America bashing, and it needs to stop. And yeah, you don't like it....there's the door!

Edited June 17, 2010 by Happy Bunny

[Captain Oates 911]

May I join you? It's only 9.30am here but I could do with a drink and some rampaging.

yippee ! you even got it in the right order !

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

So likewise, when Jezza aggressively questions a politician on Newsnight ("answer the question!")he should be more deferential to their qualifications and how long they have worked at a job?

damn my crazy computer

Edited June 17, 2010 by Trompe le Monde

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

double post

Edited June 17, 2010 by Trompe le Monde

[Captain Oates 911]

So likewise, when Jezza aggressively questions a politician on Newsnight ("answer the question!")he should be more deferential to their qualifications and how long they have worked at a job?

So likewise, when Jezza aggressively questions a politician on Newsnight ("answer the question!")he should be more deferential to their qualifications and how long they have worked at a job?

At least they are one on one, not 600 to 1 - and he is not sat 10 feet above them reminding them they are on oath. At least they can be aggressive back. This is like watching someone with their arms tied behind them and a gag in their mouth being beaten by a mob - every one of whom claims to be a devout follower of Christ. Sickening.

double post

yes the vj server gets slower every day

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

The idea that the British press is some kind of genteel and respectful institution compared to the American press is pretty ridiculous when you consider that one newspaper's anti-pedophilia campaign once lead a pitchfork-wielding gang to protest a pediatricians house in Wales.

[TracyTN 237]

At least they are one on one, not 600 to 1 - and he is not sat 10 feet above them reminding them they are on oath. At least they can be aggressive back. This is like watching someone with their arms tied behind them and a gag in their mouth being beaten by a mob - every one of whom claims to be a devout follower of Christ. Sickening.

yes the vj server gets slower every day

Comparing a UK news host's questioning tactics to those of the US congress - uh, apples and oranges much?

[tmma 467]

I dont know what the BNP believe but whatever it is they are tiny and rejected in the polls and in politics

Exceptionalism and Nationalism is not tiny in the US - more the norm

The USA has 300+million living in it. I put it to you that if you think 'Exceptionalism and Nationalism' is 'the norm', maybe you are basing your assumptions and stereotypes on the people you are associating with; and painting everyone else here with the same brush......?

I am wondering why you even want to live here. You have identified the worst this country has and applied it to all; you've complained that Americans are too proud/too stupid/ too insulated; and you give the impression that your observations and conclusions about where you are are a source of unhappiness to you.

People who just openly admit that they prefer one place over another actually get my respect. Why? Because they don't blame anything or anyone else for their preference ( Homesick American was tactless in her wanting to be back in the USA whilst in England, but at least she was honest. ' I just want to go back to the US').

It's also rather amusing that you target France as some sort of unNationalistic unExceptionalist Utopia should you find yourself unwilling or unable or unwhatever it is to commit to either the USA or the UK. Viva La France and have a glance at some French history.

In the meantime, do please stop painting us all with the substandard, uneducated, unworldly paintbrush you have come to know and dislike so much.

[Captain Oates 911]

I put it to you that if you think 'Exceptionalism and Nationalism' is 'the norm', maybe you are basing your assumptions and stereotypes on the people you are associating with; and painting everyone else here with the same brush......?

I first came across Americans in volume in the early 80's when I became European Finance Director for an American company based in Georgia. It took minutes before I was informed that the way things are done in the US and everything about America is superior to anywhere else in the world.

I have had an unlimited business visa since then and I made hundreds of visits - some of them via Concorde for two day meetings.

I have mixed with people all over Europe and received their opinions on the culture of the US in their eyes. My opinions are not just mine but a mix of others thoughts.

I have met Superb Americans. Clever Americans. Compassionate Americans, highly educated Americans, gentle quiet Americans - and had my life saved by an American in Saudi Arabia - literally.

It's a pity therefore that one aspect of American culture is it's inability to even discuss ONE shortcoming of the USA with an ALIEN, but rather to immediately brand them as the enemy and close ranks.

The Brits are seen worldwide as snotty etc etc and the Americans are regarded worldwide in a certain way as well. To deny this or say it's just me, is simply to hide one's head in the sand.