Naturalization wobbles

[TracyTN 237]

Tracy your attention is wandering - I said she is unwilling/unable to give reasons but I sense (I feel) brainwashing at her school in just the same way I was brainwashed. We didn't stand up in class with a flag and an eagle and our hands on our hearts - it was actually worse than that and we were told we were better because the foreigners lived in hot countries - too hot to work - and that's why they were indolent.

It took me many years of travelling and working in Germany and France and Saudi and the US etc to be able to distinguish between truly fine countries and the others. I did however get over the idea that my country was the best in the world and the only one I could ever have allegiance to.

When I hear Mitt Romney say the the US is the finest country that has ever existed in the history of the world, I wonder what that implies about the others ?

Shades of Nuremberg

Sorry - I guess I must have missed that somewhere along the way. I do find it odd that she is unwilling to tell you her reasons though. Maybe she thinks having that discussion about her reasons would send the two of you into an argument she's not willing to have. Given what I've seen here - she's probably very smart for that! LOL

As far as Mitt Romney goes - that's his opinion. What that has to do with any of the rest of us and how we might feel, I'm sure I don't know. I think the US is a great country, but do I find it the end all be all? No.

[Gemmie 142]

Alan, I have to say that I was quite surprised at some of the things you've said here. Happy Bunny stated her reasons several times for her beliefs, and they're fair statements too. Yet every time you responded to her, there were moments of aggression and accusations. Her general point was that she personally could never become a UKC because she feels her allegiance is with the US, and that she doesn't see how anyone can become a USC when they feel the same way about their home country. Americans DO become British citizens all the time. I only know of one personally, but I'm sure if you went to the US-UK equivalent of Visa Journey, you would find a forum dedicated to this there.

Personally, I'm still torn about whether or not to go for citizenship. I would like the benefits of avoiding USCIS forever, and returning to the UK without the worries of 'what if we move back'... BUT I'm a very honest person. I don't say things that I don't mean, and at this point in my life, I would find it hard to genuinely pledge allegiance to America. I'm here because I married an American and want to give it a shot in his country - and for that, I supply endless paperwork about my health and background, and will pay taxes while I'm here. Having said that, I'll always be British first and foremost, and I'll always have values that are probably considered 'working-class British' in comparison to over here. I guess I have a sense of patriotism myself and part of that goes deep into my beliefs. I'm liberal, and believe that everyone deserves health care, housing, education, and free thinking. I think everyone should live as they choose. as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I support gay marriage, the choice for abortion, pro-immigration, helping those that genuinely need it. I disagree with so many policies and attitudes in the US that making a promise to break my ties with the UK and 'side with America' would be distressing for me.

ETA: I guess my reasons are more political, and there are political aspects that I dislike about the UK as well, even though I'm a citizen there. Maybe I'll learn to separate the country with the policies in the next 3 years.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Gemmie

[Fandango 1,439]

I would have more respect for them NOT taking an oath they KNEW they could not/would not keep. That shows a strength of character to follow one's own convictions rather than be pressured by a spouse or anyone to give up your original citizenship- if you have doubts of your own about the commitment about to be made to any country ( not just the USA).. If you cannot keep the promise ( oath) to any nation or person even, don't make it.

You said what I couldn't express.

TY Shele and Gemmie too

[Captain Oates 910]

You don't reckon "British only" policies point to a nationalism or exceptionalism similar to Mitt Romney's statements?

I dont know what the BNP believe but whatever it is they are tiny and rejected in the polls and in politics

Exceptionalism and Nationalism is not tiny in the US - more the norm

[Captain Oates 910]

Sorry - I guess I must have missed that somewhere along the way. I do find it odd that she is unwilling to tell you her reasons though. Maybe she thinks having that discussion about her reasons would send the two of you into an argument she's not willing to have. Given what I've seen here - she's probably very smart for that! LOL

As far as Mitt Romney goes - that's his opinion. What that has to do with any of the rest of us and how we might feel, I'm sure I don't know. I think the US is a great country, but do I find it the end all be all? No.

Actually, I have just come back from the range after belting out a few magazines from my Glock in a very American style and I do respect her opinion. She (sorry 3rd party talk)says that she doesn't believe in Dual Citizens and would vote to ban it. That is clear and I respect her having that view.

As I got to the 4 way stop I thought about that. If the US said I had to choose, I would hand in my US passport (that I havent got yet)- but if the UK said it, I would hand in my UK passport. If they both said it, I would become French. If they said it too I would rip em all up and stay in my house.

I think the word allegiance is what we get hung up about. I am not talking about treason and all that stuff - more 'respect' for the country. When I see people of non indiginous ethnicity in the UK (sounds like Arizona talk), and I see them throwing litter out of their cars and parking where they want and with expired tax discs and shouting at indigenous women calling them vile names etc etc I see that as not respecting the UK. If they are UK citizens then I say they are not respecting their country. When I take an oath to the US, it only applies as long as I am a citizen - and during that time I will be a model citizen giving full respect to the laws of the US.

If the US are prepared to formally accept my resignation at a future time, then that releases me from my oath. As I can either be in or out, and as I am going to be 100% with the US while I am in, I can't possibly be treasonous or whatever while a citizen.

So I see bunnies point in a way and while I am a citizen I will be 100% US

Where I am sure we differ, is that I see it as a right given by the govt which can be renounced with the blessing of the govt and I will do it if my conscience says I must, whereas she sees it as more permanent than marriage. More like a religious oath which lasts to eternity and probably beyond

So in reality - I will have only one active citizenship at a time even though I have two passports.

I think the only problem is this war stuff that America is constantly engaged in. If it comes to a conflict, I would choose whose side I should be on and only have the passport of that country.

By the way, some people have the idea that this oath stuff should take precedence over EVERYTHING. In other words they will kill their relatives in a foreign country if ordered to do so. Let's say their mother for instance. I think that's barmy and anyone who does that is barmy (but so faithful to the oath so pin a medal on em ra ra)

I think the criticism should be reserved for those who are citizens of a country but work against that country while remaining citizens of that country. There are plenty of those.

If the UK asked me to spy on the US while a US Citizen, I would refuse. If the US asked me to spy on the UK while a UK citizen, I would refuse. Easy.

[TracyTN 237]

Exceptionalism and Nationalism is not tiny in the US - more the norm

Honestly I think I'd hate to live where you live. I just don't see how you draw that conclusion, unless you're basing it solely on what you see around your microcosm or what's shown to you on television (or both). Well, at least not in the way you seem to portray nationalism - which is the idea that the US is the greatest country in the world, all others need not apply.

[Captain Oates 910]

Alan, I have to say that I was quite surprised at some of the things you've said here. Happy Bunny stated her reasons several times for her beliefs, and they're fair statements too. Yet every time you responded to her, there were moments of aggression and accusations. Her general point was that she personally could never become a UKC because she feels her allegiance is with the US, and that she doesn't see how anyone can become a USC when they feel the same way about their home country. Americans DO become British citizens all the time. I only know of one personally, but I'm sure if you went to the US-UK equivalent of Visa Journey, you would find a forum dedicated to this there.

Personally, I'm still torn about whether or not to go for citizenship. I would like the benefits of avoiding USCIS forever, and returning to the UK without the worries of 'what if we move back'... BUT I'm a very honest person. I don't say things that I don't mean, and at this point in my life, I would find it hard to genuinely pledge allegiance to America. I'm here because I married an American and want to give it a shot in his country - and for that, I supply endless paperwork about my health and background, and will pay taxes while I'm here. Having said that, I'll always be British first and foremost, and I'll always have values that are probably considered 'working-class British' in comparison to over here. I guess I have a sense of patriotism myself and part of that goes deep into my beliefs. I'm liberal, and believe that everyone deserves health care, housing, education, and free thinking. I think everyone should live as they choose. as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I support gay marriage, the choice for abortion, pro-immigration, helping those that genuinely need it. I disagree with so many policies and attitudes in the US that making a promise to break my ties with the UK and 'side with America' would be distressing for me.

ETA: I guess my reasons are more political, and there are political aspects that I dislike about the UK as well, even though I'm a citizen there. Maybe I'll learn to separate the country with the policies in the next 3 years.

I relate to all those sentiments. I think this 'fitting in' goes in waves.

When I arrived here it was all big house, big car, big roads and sunshine - then all the stuff you mention comes to the fore and you get down and homesick. Then you get back on your feet and another 6 month goes past and you feel great. Then the wobbles come back.

Most of the young people on here have no idea what's ahead of them in the US when they want to retire. I retired at 54 and it was so easy. My wife can't retire at that age as her job supplies our health insurance. Imagine 10 years paying ones own health insurance at say $15k pa. We may have to go the UK if she wants to retire early (early for here)

I was too hard on bunny and I am sorry about that - but this place is really scary and I keep running across people who's attitudes are what we went to war against in 1939 and I mean that literally. (no not the bunny)

My friend has been here 15 years and says it's perfect for him as he is shallow. To a deep thinking immigrant from Europe, the politics and legalities and the lack of laws against hate speech and death threats etc has to be disconcerting. Chris Matthews was saying that the govt used to strong arm companies where the FBI would find out which executives were having affairs with their secretaries and threaten to expose them if the company didnt follow govt instructions ! The IRS would fix them up at the same time using falsehoods. He actually advocated those tactics against BP executives. NOT very BBC

I can't believe the stuff people can say under the guise of free speech - their feet wouldn't touch in the UK if they said they wanted to attack Parliament with guns - and water the tree of liberty with the blood of their countrymen and fellow citizens. 600,000 Americans killed by Americans in the civil war.

If a European didn't get a bit emotionally disturbed here, then they are not thinking people and not listening to what's going on. I reckon most of the BRITS on here who do survive all these assaults on their senses and become USC's will be a big gain to the US and the USC's shouldn't be so sniffy about whether we keep our red passports locked in our closets.

Edited June 16, 2010 by saywhat

[Captain Oates 910]

Honestly I think I'd hate to live where you live. I just don't see how you draw that conclusion, unless you're basing it solely on what you see around your microcosm or what's shown to you on television (or both). Well, at least not in the way you seem to portray nationalism - which is the idea that the US is the greatest country in the world, all others need not apply.

Oh come on Tracy - goto any country in europe, stop a passer by and say

A Which country is the most nationalistic

B which country thinks it is better than the rest

They are not going to say the isle of man

Edited June 16, 2010 by saywhat

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I still think people take citizenship way way too seriously. I take my US citizenship VERY lightly. I would swear allegiance to the Queen in a heart beat and not really mean it. In fact had I stayed another 2 years I would have no sweat. Its all about the taxes in the end, nothing else matters.

PS. If the world is really wanting to be at peace, Nationalism must DIE.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Sousuke

[Captain Oates 910]

I still think people take citizenship way way too seriously. I take my US citizenship VERY lightly. I would swear allegiance to the Queen in a heart beat and not really mean it. In fact had I stayed another 2 years I would have no sweat. Its all about the taxes in the end, nothing else matters.

PS. If the world is really wanting to be at peace, Nationalism must DIE.

Best post yet. I am guilty of taking American citizenship too seriously. I can imagine how loyal they will be to me, so I will chill and do some numero uno stuff.

Edited June 17, 2010 by saywhat

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

If I go to most town centers (or centres) in the UK on any given weekend after the pubs close down you will usually find packs of marauding drunks, fights, throwing up, aggression, etc. Is this an aspect of UK life? Unfortunately, I think it is.....does it define the British people? That would be a very negative way to look at things and I would prefer not to filter my experience of Britain with the more negative elements.

My point is, you will find Americans like Mitt Romney who think Americans are the best ever country in the history of the world.....you will also find a lot of Americans who laugh when John Stewart lampoons it on his show the next day. I am far more likely to encounter the latter in my day to day life.

You can take the good with the bad.............and you can find like-minded people if you look around.

I still think people take citizenship way way too seriously. I take my US citizenship VERY lightly. I would swear allegiance to the Queen in a heart beat and not really mean it. In fact had I stayed another 2 years I would have no sweat. Its all about the taxes in the end, nothing else matters.

So true!

[TracyTN 237]

Oh come on Tracy - goto any country in europe, stop a passer by and say

A Which country is the most nationalistic

B which country thinks it is better than the rest

They are not going to say the isle of man

So that makes it true - because they say so?

Okay - just checking!

[Gemmie 142]

If I go to most town centers (or centres) in the UK on any given weekend after the pubs close down you will usually find packs of marauding drunks, fights, throwing up, aggression, etc. Is this an aspect of UK life? Unfortunately, I think it is.....does it define the British people? That would be a very negative way to look at things and I would prefer not to filter my experience of Britain with the more negative elements.

The thing is, people get overly emotional when people criticize their country. If I were to take a step back and view what you said objectively, I would say you're completely right. The UK has a drinking culture that is unlike any other - it's not unusual to drink alcohol every day in different circumstances as to us, it's a social practice. We have more binge drinking than anywhere else in Europe. And we also take football extremely seriously. Put those together, and you get the stereotype about our violent hooligans. It wouldn't be fair to say that all British people are alcoholic hooligans, but there is an element of truth to it.

In the same way, most people around the world view Americans as extremely patriotic - not in the good way of being proud of their country - but in the ignorant and cocky way. And even though not every person is like that, there is an element of truth to that as well. Never in my life have I seen so many flags on a street, so many references to the country and its greatness, such a lack of awareness about the world, such a separation between laws and country, and I live in New England which is supposedly not so bad. Every time I hear someone over here saying that America is great for freedom, I always speak up and point out that there are plenty of other countries that have MORE freedom. The response is always to compare it with Middle Eastern countries, but there's nothing new there. Canada, every country in Europe, Australia, NZ, Japan, etc... these all have the same freedom (if not more), yet the only country that boasts about this is America.

I'm not trying to put Americans down, and there's nothing wrong with being patriotic. But there is a difference in being proud of your country, and being ignorant to other ones, and I think the concept of America to most around the world is that they have issues with the second. Whether you take that stereotype as valid or not is up to you. Excuse me while I go back to my vodka and run through the streets screaming with rage at England's performance last week.

[Captain Oates 910]

The thing is, people get overly emotional when people criticize their country. If I were to take a step back and view what you said objectively, I would say you're completely right. The UK has a drinking culture that is unlike any other - it's not unusual to drink alcohol every day in different circumstances as to us, it's a social practice. We have more binge drinking than anywhere else in Europe. And we also take football extremely seriously. Put those together, and you get the stereotype about our violent hooligans. It wouldn't be fair to say that all British people are alcoholic hooligans, but there is an element of truth to it.

In the same way, most people around the world view Americans as extremely patriotic - not in the good way of being proud of their country - but in the ignorant and cocky way. And even though not every person is like that, there is an element of truth to that as well. Never in my life have I seen so many flags on a street, so many references to the country and its greatness, such a lack of awareness about the world, such a separation between laws and country, and I live in New England which is supposedly not so bad. Every time I hear someone over here saying that America is great for freedom, I always speak up and point out that there are plenty of other countries that have MORE freedom. The response is always to compare it with Middle Eastern countries, but there's nothing new there. Canada, every country in Europe, Australia, NZ, Japan, etc... these all have the same freedom (if not more), yet the only country that boasts about this is America.

I'm not trying to put Americans down, and there's nothing wrong with being patriotic. But there is a difference in being proud of your country, and being ignorant to other ones, and I think the concept of America to most around the world is that they have issues with the second. Whether you take that stereotype as valid or not is up to you. Excuse me while I go back to my vodka and run through the streets screaming with rage at England's performance last week.

What a beautifully poised and balanced and elegant post. I couldn't have said all that without having a poke or doing a bit of acidic commentary. It has to be correct because I know that it's the view that people have all around the world. Yes USA, compare yourselves to France and Germany and Sweden instead of Yemen and Somalia. You need to stretch yourselves by having a higher comparator. I hear all this about other countries not having free speech and I go "what?".

Any European who comes to the US is taken aback by the police with dark glasses and black uniforms and boots and threatening dispositions and the myriad of overbearing laws.

I have become used to it and it goes over my head now so it must not even register at all with natural borns - so no wonder that they don't see it - especially if they have never had a quiet Sunday morning in Hampshire (the Hampshire), watching the local bobby cycling by.

Of course the knee yerk reaction to this is 'So why stay'. I have become used to it and my partner is here and it doesn't rain as much and it's easy to park and the cars and houses etc are cheap. That's why I stay.

I just wish the nationalism could be toned down and it will eventually as more Americans become aware of the outside world and get an alternative view via the internet from posts like this. They may become more aware of the hostility of the outside world to naked nationalism following the second world war (1939 to 1945) and the first world war (1914 to 1918). It is a hostility to nationalism and not to the US as such.

[Captain Oates 910]

So that makes it true - because they say so?

Okay - just checking!

Tracy that proves my point - the fact that the US doesn't care what other people think and doesn't know where other countries are apart from a co-ordinate on a predator drone's gps system, means the US devalues every country in the world and doesn't care. That is the perfect definition of nationalism. That is why some people in some countries have set about trying to make the US care.

Edited June 17, 2010 by saywhat