Naturalization wobbles

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Bill Bryson, who is possibly the biggest American Anglophile you will ever find, won't become a citizen because he is too embarrassed he might fail the Knowledge of Life test. That someone who lived there for 20+ years and has written extensively about the UK is afraid of that test suggests that maybe the UK currently sets a higher bar for citizenship than the US presently does. What do you make of that?

Wow you are a find !

Did it feel creepy - how did you think ? Did you feel you were letting the side down ?

Why are so many of your countrymen unwilling ? Do you have an insight ?

ps congratulations - seriously

I know a lot of people not including myself who did it, so I think you are very off base

[Captain Oates 910]

Well, what does your wife give as her reasons?

Tracy your attention is wandering - I said she is unwilling/unable to give reasons but I sense (I feel) brainwashing at her school in just the same way I was brainwashed. We didn't stand up in class with a flag and an eagle and our hands on our hearts - it was actually worse than that and we were told we were better because the foreigners lived in hot countries - too hot to work - and that's why they were indolent.

It took me many years of travelling and working in Germany and France and Saudi and the US etc to be able to distinguish between truly fine countries and the others. I did however get over the idea that my country was the best in the world and the only one I could ever have allegiance to.

When I hear Mitt Romney say the the US is the finest country that has ever existed in the history of the world, I wonder what that implies about the others ?

Shades of Nuremberg

[Fandango 1,439]

Name calling and insults ? Pointing out that 'one of the only countries' is bad English is not an insult.

I find the idea that all the countries of Europe plus /Australia/New Zealand/Canada and all the others do not have the wonderful free speech of the US is pretty condescending and supremacist and an insult to them - but it's 'just a feeling' I have.

But that's going back - let's go forward

I repeat, how come this citizenship is ok for the foreigners coming here, but not for USC's going the other way ? What do you reckon is going on in the minds of the other USC's ?

Calling me a 'supremacist', for one, which I find is the most insulting thing you've said. Let alone the fact that you're accusing me of saying things I never did, like what I put in red above.

Here's another few gems:

Your comments reveal you as a US Nationalist, and you can't be that without diminishing other nations. It's part of the deal. To say that you could never be a dual Citizen of another country reveals your view of 'them' and that you have internalised the same junk that I was fed

You are not so unique and not special and it's that superior arrogance that gets up the noses of people of free countries with free speech and democracy (and health care) all around the world.

Luckily the future of the US is as a minority white country with more and more dilution of this right wing fantasy stuff

I will fit better into that USA than the USA which is your holy concept

^this last one, when you completely misconstrued what I said. That is also related to what I put in maroon, which is not what you were pointing out at all. You completely read it out of context.

I couldn't be bothered to go any further back than that.

I never said it's great for foreigners to naturalize here, but not vice versa. I think the concept of dual nat in and of itself, regardless of country of origin/country of perm residence is fraught with a conlict of interest. I thought that was clear in my posts?

Whether this has anything to do with frustration you may be feeling having the same discussion with your wife, please don't confuse the two and credit me with saying things I never did.

[Captain Oates 910]

Bill Bryson, who is possibly the biggest American Anglophile you will ever find, won't become a citizen because he is too embarrassed he might fail the Knowledge of Life test. That someone who lived there for 20+ years and has written extensively about the UK is afraid of that test suggests that maybe the UK currently sets a higher bar for citizenship than the US presently does. What do you make of that?

I know a lot of people not including myself who did it, so I think you are very off base

I think Brit tests are hard including the driving test which would scare me. I did two times 3 week long residential advanced driving courses but I still wouldn't fancy the UK test.

I can't be that far off base when this lady is saying her Nationalism or Patriotism would not let her do UK citizenship - something is going on there and it can't be said

[Fandango 1,439]

Tracy your attention is wandering - I said she is unwilling/unable to give reasons but I sense (I feel) brainwashing at her school in just the same way I was brainwashed. We didn't stand up in class with a flag and an eagle and our hands on our hearts - it was actually worse than that and we were told we were better because the foreigners lived in hot countries - too hot to work - and that's why they were indolent.

It took me many years of travelling and working in Germany and France and Saudi and the US etc to be able to distinguish between truly fine countries and the others. I did however get over the idea that my country was the best in the world and the only one I could ever have allegiance to.

When I hear Mitt Romney say the the US is the finest country that has ever existed in the history of the world, I wonder what that implies about the others ?

Shades of Nuremberg

Why is it so wrong to be proud of your country? I'm not saying to the point of not accepting that there's good and bad in everything, in your own country and in others. But why is it being 'brainwashed' to not wanting to give up your citizenship? You won't give up yours, why should I be willing to give up mine?

Your problem with me seems to stem from the fact that I said I'd never take UKC if given the optty. I wouldn't do so, because my allegiance already belongs to another, and I couldn't in good conscience swear an oath I didn't believe in. Not because I think the UK is ####### or a 'lesser country' for ####'s sake.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Well my husband is currently eligible for US citizenship but won't take it so there you have it - I'm sure you would find many other British people who feel the same way. My husband loves the US but feels he will always be British and doesn't want to go through the hoops just to avoid the USCIS in the future but wants to avoid the IRS if he moves back to Britain permanently. I don't take it personally, or even think it's remotely a political decision.

[Captain Oates 910]

I never said it's great for foreigners to naturalize here, but not vice versa. I think the concept of dual nat in and of itself, regardless of country of origin/country of perm residence is fraught with a conlict of interest. I thought that was clear in my posts?

In that case, if you have doubts about the concept, do you disapprove of all the people who are seeking to become USC's if they will also become dual citizens ?

Would you vote for new USC's to be required to renounce their previous citizenship ?

I guess that's the nitty gritty of this discussion and what it all boils down to.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

When I hear Mitt Romney say the the US is the finest country that has ever existed in the history of the world, I wonder what that implies about the others ?

Shades of Nuremberg

What do you think when Nick Griffith makes similar noises about Britain? He is an elected official in the UK, like Mitt Romney is (or was) here, but I don't believe his views color the nation as a whole.

[Fandango 1,439]

In that case, if you have doubts about the concept, do you disapprove of all the people who are seeking to become USC's if they will also become dual citizens ?

Would you vote for new USC's to be required to renounce their previous citizenship ?

I guess that's the nitty gritty of this discussion and what it all boils down to.

As I said, I think it's neither black nor white. I suppose in theory, dual citizenship should be disallowed.

[Captain Oates 910]

Well my husband is currently eligible for US citizenship but won't take it so there you have it - I'm sure you would find many other British people who feel the same way. My husband loves the US but feels he will always be British and doesn't want to go through the hoops just to avoid the USCIS in the future but wants to avoid the IRS if he moves back to Britain permanently. I don't take it personally, or even think it's remotely a political decision.

I have that IRS base covered. I will always be culturally British too but I know the danger of remaing a GC holder. It only takes one missed red light and someone killed in the other car, for him to be GC-less and UK bound. There are many other scenarios too that could end up in the same result. Also wifey could go work or live early retired with health care in England for a year or three without me losing status here.

As I said, I think it's neither black nor white. I suppose in theory, dual citizenship should be disallowed.

I should have asked that originally. That's fair enough. Thank you for engaging.

[Captain Oates 910]

What do you think when Nick Griffith makes similar noises about Britain? He is an elected official in the UK, like Mitt Romney is (or was) here, but I don't believe his views color the nation as a whole.

Nick Griffith is strange charecter. Very intelligent and good at hiding what I reckon are his true views.

I reckon he is talking about preserving a little Britain that has gone and he is a racist. However, I don't think he will ever say that Britain is the finest country that ever existed in the history of the world (not now). He would certainly get some furrowed brows from people who have seen the UK since the war.

When I see compulsory donations to the church in Germany and attached liabilities when you buy a house in France etc, I know that this UTOPIA does not exist and every country has some good and bad points. I have only been to one country that has no redeeming features at all and that borders the red sea.

So I guess what I am saying is that I am more of an internationalist and I can feel allegiance to the system in France or Germany or the UK or the US - but I know their weaknesses too and I know that non of them are ordained by god to lead the world and be an example to everyone and when I read people saying things that are incredibly Nationalistic, (like the free speech thing)I feel like we have seen it all before.

My granddad was killed fighting the Germans and my dad was in the jungles of Burma fighting the Japanese. Neither of them were Nationalistic and both of them were forced to do it. My dad bought Japanese cars after the war and admired their workmanship.

He brought me up to have an allegiance to humanity and not to this religion or that religion or this country or that country - well not the kind of allegiance we are talking about which is a purely militaristic allegiance.

Unfortunately, the US is in a militaristic phase (1776 0n) and if it was at peace with no wars looming, we could see allegiance in another light.

Mitt Romney and his ilk (I have hear many politicians say it from all parties) is playing with fire but he doesn't care.

Edited June 16, 2010 by saywhat

[Fandango 1,439]

I don't think it's entirely unhealthy for anyone on this planet to think that (s)he lives in the best country in the world. *shrug*

and allegiance is allegiance...I suppose the true test should be if you can whole heartedly recite the PoA and mean it, welcome aboard!

Edited June 16, 2010 by Happy Bunny

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I reckon he is talking about preserving a little Britain that has gone and he is a racist. However, I don't think he will ever say that Britain is the finest country that ever existed in the history of the world (not now). He would certainly get some furrowed brows from people who have seen the UK since the war.

You don't reckon "British only" policies point to a nationalism or exceptionalism similar to Mitt Romney's statements?

[sachinky 464]

It's interesting that Americans are prepared to slag off their government with the most appalling epithets, but somehow the flag and the country is a mystical concept and nothing to do with, and totally separate from, the government

This is actually something I *totally* get. I disagree with the Indian government, am apalled at some of their policies, at the rampant corruption. But to me, my country and flag is sacred. My soil is sacred. I don't see it as having any connection to the current government in power which will change in five short years. Those are two very separate things.

Edited June 16, 2010 by sachinky

[tmma 467]

So what do you think of the citizens of other countries who come to the US and do just that ?

They are doing something you could never do !

Do you see them as disloyal or traitors to their own old countries ?

Do you trust them ? Would you have more respect for them if they stayed GC ?

I would have more respect for them NOT taking an oath they KNEW they could not/would not keep. That shows a strength of character to follow one's own convictions rather than be pressured by a spouse or anyone to give up your original citizenship- if you have doubts of your own about the commitment about to be made to any country ( not just the USA).. If you cannot keep the promise ( oath) to any nation or person even, don't make it.