Naturalization wobbles

[Captain Oates 910]

No, you misunderstood me. Meaning we're one of the only ones who get easily picked on for being patriotic. I wasn't trying to be insulting, please try to do the same though.

ok

cooling down

Right well there is a difference between nationalism and patriotism

A person can be PATRIOTIC without any reference to the worth of their own country compared to another. Putting your new country right on where it is going wrong is patriotic.

Nationalism involves saying that the flag is so sacred that they weep with pride when they look at it etc etc etc and their country is better than any other and it's ok for others to join the country and give total allegiance forever and under all circumstances, but you could never pay them the same compliment by going to their country and doing the same because - because your country is different - it's just better that's all

I understand Nationalism as I was brought up under a British Nationalist system.

At school, I was taught that the British Empire was the finest Empire the world had ever seen and I was shown a map of the world coloured red. I was told that I was incredibly lucky to be born white in the finest county, in the finest country, in the finest nation on earth. God was number one and he had placed Queen Elizabeth on earth as his direct representative and then the government and then the teachers and then me. The USA was inhabited by incredibly coarse, under educated, loud mouthed ignorant people who didn't know where Britain was and thought of only money, and the lower % of the population in the US were ignorant wage slaves.

That is Nationalism. I understand Nationalism. I reject Nationalism.

Your comments reveal you as a US Nationalist, and you can't be that without diminishing other nations. It's part of the deal. To say that you could never be a dual Citizen of another country reveals your view of 'them' and that you have internalised the same junk that I was fed

Edited June 16, 2010 by saywhat

[Fandango 1,439]

ok

cooling down

Right well there is a difference between nationalism and patriotism

A person can be PATRIOTIC without any reference to the worth of their own country compared to another. Putting your new country right on where it is going wrong is patriotic.

Nationalism involves saying that the flag is so sacred that they weep with pride when they look at it etc etc etc and their country is better than any other and it's ok for others to join the country and give total allegiance forever and under all circumstances, but you could never pay them the same compliment by going to their country and doing the same because - because your country is different - it's just better that's all

I understand Nationalism as I was brought up under a British Nationalist system.

At school, I was taught that the British Empire was the finest Empire the world had ever seen and I was shown a map of the world coloured red. I was told that I was incredibly lucky to be born white in the finest county, in the finest country, in the finest nation on earth. God was number one and he had placed Queen Elizabeth on earth as his direct representative and then the government and then the teachers and then me. The USA was inhabited by incredibly coarse, under educated, loud mouthed ignorant people who didn't know where Britain was and thought of only money, and the lower % of the population in the US were ignorant wage slaves.

That is Nationalism. I understand Nationalism. I reject Nationalism.

Your comments reveal you as a US Nationalist, and you can't be that without diminishing other nations. It's part of the deal. To say that you could never be a dual Citizen of another country reveals your view of 'them' and that you have internalised the same junk that I was fed

No, it doesn't reveal my view of 'them', it reveals the loyalty I will always hold for my own country, and the desire to not lie by pledging allegiance to another, when I truly could never mean it. Please don't try to tell me my own motivations for what I do. When I lived in England....I LOVED it. I wasn't always comparing it unfavorably to the US just out of duty...I saw things that I liked better, things I didn't like better. I appreciated it for what it was, and had a blast! I could cheer on England in the footy matches, and celebrate St George's day with the rest of em...but if ever faced with swearing an oath to the Queen, I couldn't personally do it because I wouldn't ever be able to mean it. It would be semantics. What would my oath be if it wasn't true?

You mistake me as a 'Nationalist' who can never see the USA doing wrong, who thinks we are the best in everything in the world...that is not true. And if you mistake me for one, how many others can you be doing the same to as well?

You said some personally insulting things in your last post, I am glad you are cooling down, but I have yet to see an apology.

[Captain Oates 910]

No, it doesn't reveal my view of 'them', it reveals the loyalty I will always hold for my own country, and the desire to not lie by pledging allegiance to another, when I truly could never mean it. Please don't try to tell me my own motivations for what I do. When I lived in England....I LOVED it. I wasn't always comparing it unfavorably to the US just out of duty...I saw things that I liked better, things I didn't like better. I appreciated it for what it was, and had a blast! I could cheer on England in the footy matches, and celebrate St George's day with the rest of em...but if ever faced with swearing an oath to the Queen, I couldn't personally do it because I wouldn't ever be able to mean it. It would be semantics. What would my oath be if it wasn't true?

You mistake me as a 'Nationalist' who can never see the USA doing wrong, who thinks we are the best in everything in the world...that is not true. And if you mistake me for one, how many others can you be doing the same to as well?

You said some personally insulting things in your last post, I am glad you are cooling down, but I have yet to see an apology.

You can wait on that until your view of we, who are pledging allegiance to another country, has crystallized. We are doing something you find personally repugnant but you can't make your mind up as to what that says about us.

If you are not a supremacist, you need to explain why you couldn't pledge allegiance to the Head of the British State.

How come it's ok for people like us, but not you ?

David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) has naturalised in the UK

Benedict Arnold ?

[TracyTN 237]

I just took it as a personal choice of hers vs. a personal choice of David Soul or whomever else.

[Captain Oates 910]

I just took it as a personal choice of hers vs. a personal choice of David Soul or whomever else.

Yes but what's the point of having a debate with someone who justifies their approach with 'i just felt' and 'oo no I couldn't'

I mean, don't we need to be able to find actual reasons for our 'feelings' if we are going to express and debate them ?

Is it good enough to say 'I don't know why I feel like this '

One is expected to come up with reasons - even when one is asked 'what do you love about your spouse'

Edited June 16, 2010 by saywhat

[Fandango 1,439]

You can wait on that until your view of we, who are pledging allegiance to another country, has crystallized. We are doing something you find personally repugnant but you can't make your mind up as to what that says about us.

If you are not a supremacist, you need to explain why you couldn't pledge allegiance to the Head of the British State.

How come it's ok for people like us, but not you ?

David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) has naturalised in the UK

Benedict Arnold ?

It's unfortunate that you find my opinion so insulting. I'm not talking about anyone else, I'm talking about me, and what's 'right for me'. How would I claim to know what's 'right for you'???? To call me a 'supremacist' is confusing, insulting, and tbh, quite ignorant, providing I've gone through great lengths to explain my methodology and have done so by not tarring anyone who disagrees with me. What is right to one is wrong to another, and I've never judged or chastised anyone for choosing a different path. In fact, I even went so far as to say that had I still been in my US-UK relationship, he was willing to eventually naturalize, and I saw the personal benefits to him doing so. I've even acknowledged that the flaw is within the system, so why you seem so offended by my opinion is quite bizarre.

Naturalize, don't naturalize, suit yourself! I'm not saying 'oh you don't deserve it, you're this that and the other'. In fact, I also told you I was not begrudging your right to do so. You're the one in this thread who has categorized people unfavorably, and at times, have been insulting. It was nice to be able to have a discussion where two adults disagree without resorting to insults and name-calling, but I guess that time has passed now. You're the one who brought this up in the first place, so if you didn't want speculation, you probably shouldn't have invited it. Or you should have said 'positive comments only' so that no interesting debate ensued. Or 'please apologize for your ignorant countrymen and give me a pep talk to naturalize'.

Yes but what's the point of having a debate with someone who justifies their approach with 'i just felt' and 'oo no I couldn't'

I mean, don't we need to be able to find actual reasons for our 'feelings' if we are going to express and debate them ?

Is it good enough to say 'I don't know why I feel like this '

One is expected to come up with reasons - even when one is asked 'what do you love about your spouse'

I have been crystal clear about it all. My answer of 'I don't have the answers' was true. I don't have all the answers. This is not black-and-white, as I have maintained from the word go. It was just interesting to talk about.

But notice that many questions I asked you went completely unanswered. *shrug*

[TracyTN 237]

Yes but what's the point of having a debate with someone who justifies their approach with 'i just felt' and 'oo no I couldn't'

I mean, don't we need to be able to find actual reasons for our 'feelings' if we are going to express and debate them ?

Is it good enough to say 'I don't know why I feel like this '

One is expected to come up with reasons - even when one is asked 'what do you love about your spouse'

I'm sorry, but I thought she had quite clearly given her own personal reasons for it in several different posts - the last of which being "but if ever faced with swearing an oath to the Queen, I couldn't personally do it because I wouldn't ever be able to mean it. It would be semantics. What would my oath be if it wasn't true?"

Edited to add - I'm still puzzled why this whole exchange turned into a 'fight' anyway. I thought it was meant as just a bouncing off of ideas - then it became this whole other thing with accusations of nationalism and the US somehow being 'better'. Very strange!

Edited June 16, 2010 by TracyTN

[Fandango 1,439]

I'm sorry, but I thought she had quite clearly given her own personal reasons for it in several different posts - the last of which being "but if ever faced with swearing an oath to the Queen, I couldn't personally do it because I wouldn't ever be able to mean it. It would be semantics. What would my oath be if it wasn't true?"

Edited to add - I'm still puzzled why this whole exchange turned into a 'fight' anyway. I thought it was meant as just a bouncing off of ideas - then it became this whole other thing with accusations of nationalism and the US somehow being 'better'. Very strange!

That's what has me goin too. I was enjoying it up until then!

[Captain Oates 910]

I'm sorry, but I thought she had quite clearly given her own personal reasons for it in several different posts - the last of which being "but if ever faced with swearing an oath to the Queen, I couldn't personally do it because I wouldn't ever be able to mean it. It would be semantics. What would my oath be if it wasn't true?"

Edited to add - I'm still puzzled why this whole exchange turned into a 'fight' anyway. I thought it was meant as just a bouncing off of ideas - then it became this whole other thing with accusations of nationalism and the US somehow being 'better'. Very strange!

You confuse 'fight' with 'vigorous debate'

Why can we from all these countries be welcomed as USC's but USC's could never do it the other way round ? My USC wife is encouraging me to do the USC thing but she too could never do it in the UK.

How come it's such a one way thing ? She can't /doesn't want to, explain it either

When you get right down to it, it's the same as a Roman Citizen being offered Israeli citizenship in the year 0

[Fandango 1,439]

You confuse 'fight' with 'vigorous debate'

Why can we from all these countries be welcomed as USC's but USC's could never do it the other way round ? My USC wife is encouraging me to do the USC thing but she too could never do it in the UK.

How come it's such a one way thing ? She can't /doesn't want to, explain it either

When you get right down to it, it's the same as a Roman Citizen being offered Israeli citizenship in the year 0

'vigorous debate' does not include name calling and insults, and it never will.

I HAVE explained it, are you not reading my posts? I've explained it so much that I'm downright repetitive!

[TracyTN 237]

You confuse 'fight' with 'vigorous debate'

Why can we from all these countries be welcomed as USC's but USC's could never do it the other way round ? My USC wife is encouraging me to do the USC thing but she too could never do it in the UK.

How come it's such a one way thing ? She can't /doesn't want to, explain it either

When you get right down to it, it's the same as a Roman Citizen being offered Israeli citizenship in the year 0

I'll defer to Lisa's reply on that first point.

Again with the blanket statements, Alan!! How do you know that ALL USCs could never do it 'the other way round'??? It may shock you to know that I - a USC by birth! - am quite bitter that I'll never be able to be a British citizen (or even a subject) and carry a UK passport. (Well, I believe I could get a passport if we lived there for a period of time, but as we don't plan on that - it likely won't happen.) My child will be able to but I can't. So don't paint us all with the same brush just because your wife couldn't bring herself to do it.

I would have no compunctions taking that oath because I *personally* don't view it the same way that Lisa does - and that doesn't make me right and her wrong, or vice versa. I feel I can be loyal to both countries and uphold what they stand for. In fact, even as it stands right now, I do feel some loyalty and fidelity to England, and the only 'connection' I have to it is my husband and his family, whom I love dearly.

If it happened to come to pass that the two nations were to go to war - well, I'd decide for myself which nation I felt was on the right side in that conflict and live/act accordingly. That may not be the US - which would be sad to me and unfortunate, but the fact that I was born here wouldn't change that.

*edited for clarity*

Edited June 16, 2010 by TracyTN

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I think you'll find a lot of USCs who take British citizenship, myself included

[Captain Oates 910]

'vigorous debate' does not include name calling and insults, and it never will.

I HAVE explained it, are you not reading my posts? I've explained it so much that I'm downright repetitive!

Name calling and insults ? Pointing out that 'one of the only countries' is bad English is not an insult.

I find the idea that all the countries of Europe plus /Australia/New Zealand/Canada and all the others do not have the wonderful free speech of the US is pretty condescending and supremacist and an insult to them - but it's 'just a feeling' I have.

But that's going back - let's go forward

I repeat, how come this citizenship is ok for the foreigners coming here, but not for USC's going the other way ? What do you reckon is going on in the minds of the other USC's ?

[TracyTN 237]

I repeat, how come this citizenship is ok for the foreigners coming here, but not for USC's going the other way ? What do you reckon is going on in the minds of the other USC's ?

Well, what does your wife give as her reasons?

[Captain Oates 910]

I think you'll find a lot of USCs who take British citizenship, myself included

Wow you are a find !

Did it feel creepy - how did you think ? Did you feel you were letting the side down ?

Why are so many of your countrymen unwilling ? Do you have an insight ?

ps congratulations - seriously