Naturalization wobbles

[Captain Oates 910]

Gotta say, Bob usually grates on every nerve of mine, but in this instance, I don't see where he's saying anything out of line. Dual nationality as a technicality (oh we don't have to deal with USCIS anymore) is a great concept...truly, it is. But I do think there's a conflict of interest in being a citizen of two countries. It's an interesting topic...where does the allegiance fall? How can one really claim loyalty and the like to two different countries at the same time?

I do think Bob's going overboard with the whole 'oh it could happen tomorrow' tangent....but I do think he raises some very legitimate concerns. It is a big step to any LPR considering the option of dual. I think if I were in the UK, no matter how long I was there, I could never adopt a dual citizenship because my allegiance will always be with the US, first and always.

I reckon we have to define 'allegiance' which people don't seem to attempt

If you have allegiance to your best friend and you see them doing stupid, you have a duty to tell your friend that what they are doing can really harm them (or in other words to criticize their actions). So any USC has a duty to help the US gov back onto the right track when they go astray and that is allegiance

Paying taxes, keeping laws is also allegiance. Many illegals in the UK and the US don't keep any laws as they have no allegiance.

Of course the US is in the military phase of it's proxy Empire building and so many people only see allegiance as it relates to war making - and therein lies the problem.

There is a difference between Nationalism and Patriotism and the US has a strong streak of both. The Nationalism can get quite mystical with the personality cult of the founding fathers mixed in there. They were only politicians of the time doing their best you know and not saints or god's place men.

People get married and then break their oath - about 50% of people actually. Is it worse to break your oath to the USCIS or to your spouse ?

I agree that you shouldn't work against a country where you have taken an oath. You should pay taxes, keep laws and denounce traitors and terrorists. No Treason. However, in the case of a war between say the UK and the USA, I think it would be entirely honorable to renounce US Citizenship formally, and then go and fly a nuclear bomber for the UK

That honorable alternative allows me to become a US Citizen with no reservations.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Oh Alan. For this post alone I would love you if I didn't already. I'll be proud to be your fellow American one of these days.

[Fandango 1,439]

I reckon we have to define 'allegiance' which people don't seem to attempt

If you have allegiance to your best friend and you see them doing stupid, you have a duty to tell your friend that what they are doing can really harm them (or in other words to criticize their actions). So any USC has a duty to help the US gov back onto the right track when they go astray and that is allegiance

Paying taxes, keeping laws is also allegiance. Many illegals in the UK and the US don't keep any laws as they have no allegiance.

Of course the US is in the military phase of it's proxy Empire building and so many people only see allegiance as it relates to war making - and therein lies the problem.

There is a difference between Nationalism and Patriotism and the US has a strong streak of both. The Nationalism can get quite mystical with the personality cult of the founding fathers mixed in there. They were only politicians of the time doing their best you know and not saints or god's place men.

People get married and then break their oath - about 50% of people actually. Is it worse to break your oath to the USCIS or to your spouse ?

I agree that you shouldn't work against a country where you have taken an oath. You should pay taxes, keep laws and denounce traitors and terrorists. No Treason.

Your definition of allegiance is fine, but shouldn't non-USCs also be paying taxes, minding laws, etc?

However, in the case of a war between say the UK and the USA, I think it would be entirely honorable to renounce US Citizenship formally, and then go and fly a nuclear bomber for the UK

That honorable alternative allows me to become a US Citizen with no reservations.

This is where we disagree.

[Captain Oates 910]

Oh Alan. For this post alone I would love you if I didn't already. I'll be proud to be your fellow American one of these days.

It's coming to a country near you soon. January for USC (latest) then it will take me most of the spring of 2011 to get the constitution changed so I can become Prez, mystical leader and big dadda boom boom for life. Then there will be some changes around here.

Edited June 15, 2010 by saywhat

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

It's coming to a country near you soon. January for USC (latest) then it will take me most of the spring of 2011 to get the constitution changed so I can become Prez, mystical leader and big dadda boom boom for life. Then there will be some changes around here.

If you need a deputy, I'm ready for the call up. I'm already leading the VJ Army of the Night and I got drunk with Al Gore so I have mucho real world experience.

[Captain Oates 910]

Your definition of allegiance is fine, but shouldn't non-USCs also be paying taxes, minding laws, etc?

This is where we disagree.

Yes. the formal procedure that the US has for renouncing Nationality, allows for a proper release from the oath. Once released, we can do what we want.

Of course GC holders should pay tax and uphold laws. I pay tax on my worldwide income from all sauces (I own HP Sauce shares).

Now exactly why do you disagree ? Shouldn't you really say why ? It's ok to say you don't like dark chocolate without giving a reason, but for everything else you have to have reason or otherwise we end up going into Iraq again.

[Captain Oates 910]

If you need a deputy, I'm ready for the call up. I'm already leading the VJ Army of the Night and I got drunk with Al Gore so I have mucho real world experience.

I knew there was a reason why he was getting divorced ! Jeez that iphone gets around...

I am thinking of appointing you big mamma hooyazya bongo in charge of oil spills and the penally high taxation of voodoo supplies as they just caused general petraeus to keel over

There is free GIN and a limo with this job and unlimited blackberry time

The owl will be Secretary to the Treasury and Special Governor of South Carolina

[TracyTN 237]

Totally off topic, but I've been dorkily organizing hubby's natz paperwork in the last month or so. He can apply in mid August and I figure the Blighty bun will keep us busy enough to the point where all he'll have time to do is have passport photos done and sign the N 400. I'm a bit sad that this will be our last foray into immi though

[Captain Oates 910]

Totally off topic, but I've been dorkily organizing hubby's natz paperwork in the last month or so. He can apply in mid August and I figure the Blighty bun will keep us busy enough to the point where all he'll have time to do is have passport photos done and sign the N 400. I'm a bit sad that this will be our last foray into immi though

Masochist !!!!

I got my photos 6 weeks ago hoping to cheat my new country who demand 30 days before photos (what a good start)- but Walgreen's put the date on the back - so now I have to go and get some more done in July as I am an August filer too

I looked as surprised as Saddam 10 seconds after he had been hung, so probably a good idea to get new ones anyway

Think I will get an orange face job like John Boener (It's pronounced ####### not bayner - ask any german) and a Mitt Romney hair do - when in Rome...

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

I'm a bit sad that this will be our last foray into immi though

Clearly a sign of the so-called pregnancy brain. Just kidding! (I am a little afraid of Tracy still after all these years.)

I knew there was a reason why he was getting divorced ! Jeez that iphone gets around...

I am thinking of appointing you big mamma hooyazya bongo in charge of oil spills and the penally high taxation of voodoo supplies as they just caused general petraeus to keel over

There is free GIN and a limo with this job and unlimited blackberry time

The owl will be Secretary to the Treasury and Special Governor of South Carolina

I am not and have never been the other woman in the Gore breakup. Honest.

I like my new position and especially my new perks; ta President-in-Waiting Alan!

Owl has a much tougher job with SC there. Clearly you still love me best.

[Captain Oates 910]

Clearly a sign of the so-called pregnancy brain. Just kidding! (I am a little afraid of Tracy still after all these years.)

I am not and have never been the other woman in the Gore breakup. Honest.

I like my new position and especially my new perks; ta President-in-Waiting Alan!

Owl has a much tougher job with SC there. Clearly you still love me best.

It will take me a little while to get over earlytraingate, but you are forgiven in principle.

Now let's join forces and hunt down people who skip without paying their debts to the companies who's shares I own. I think people who borrow money should be fitted with ankle transmitters and followed using predator drones.

2 months late and it's penal servitude

skipping countries and it's -- kapow ! splat !

[TracyTN 237]

Clearly a sign of the so-called pregnancy brain. Just kidding! (I am a little afraid of Tracy still after all these years.)

LMAO why?!! Cos of my zest and zeal for all things immi? I admit it is a tad scary, and i was this way pre pregnancy so I really have no excuse.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Gotta say, Bob usually grates on every nerve of mine, but in this instance, I don't see where he's saying anything out of line. Dual nationality as a technicality (oh we don't have to deal with USCIS anymore) is a great concept...truly, it is. But I do think there's a conflict of interest in being a citizen of two countries. It's an interesting topic...where does the allegiance fall? How can one really claim loyalty and the like to two different countries at the same time?

I do think Bob's going overboard with the whole 'oh it could happen tomorrow' tangent....but I do think he raises some very legitimate concerns. It is a big step to any LPR considering the option of dual. I think if I were in the UK, no matter how long I was there, I could never adopt a dual citizenship because my allegiance will always be with the US, first and always.

But what happens when someone is born with both, as many of our children will be?

By becoming a US citizen you are pledging your loyalty to Uncle Sam forever....through your IRS obligations, no matter where you live in the world.

[Captain Oates 910]

LMAO why?!! Cos of my zest and zeal for all things immi? I admit it is a tad scary, and i was this way pre pregnancy so I really have no excuse.

Renouncing citizenship is really complicated so you can hold out hope of that - divorce from USCIS need not be permanent with the N400

Then you can start again with GC application to North Korea - I bet that is real fun and you have to learn Korean as well.

[Captain Oates 910]

But what happens when someone is born with both, as many of our children will be?

By becoming a US citizen you are pledging your loyalty to Uncle Sam forever....through your IRS obligations, no matter where you live in the world.

Good point.

If I go back to the UK forever, I will renounce USC and be officially released from my oath - just like people are released from their vows on divorce.

Only losing limbs etc is forever. Some people disavow their children. President John Adams did that.

1799 John Adams renounced his second son, ceasing all correspondence with him and describing him as "a mere rake, buck, blood and beast."

It's a day out in London that's all.