Governor of Bamiyan province in Afghanistan wants to put back together Buddha statues blown up by Taleban

[Veiled Princess 1]

I was under the impression the Afghani people were being pressured by outside forces.

VP,

The original article clearly stated that the Governor of Bamiyan province in Afghanistan wanted it rebuilt.

Oh, that's right, political figures always do things purely for the benefit of the people and not to please other policital figures

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't think any of those crimes are punishable by death.

But haven't people in certain Sharia states been variously executed, dismembered or otherwise tortured for committing those specific crimes by strict interpretations of Sharia law?

If so, and if those punishments are the result of flawed interpretations and implementations of Sharia, I'm just which specific country/countries do you consider to be the model example of how Sharia should be imposed?

[Veiled Princess 1]

I don't think any of those crimes are punishable by death.

But haven't people in certain Sharia states been variously executed, dismembered or otherwise tortured for committing those specific crimes by strict interpretations of Sharia law?

If so, and if those punishments are the result of flawed interpretations and implementations of Sharia, I'm just which specific country/countries do you consider to be the model example of how Sharia should be imposed?

And people have served years in prison before anyone believed they were guilty... people have been shot in war or shoot outs because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time..... people have starved to death because they fell through the cracks in the system, rapists and murders get less time than a street hussler.... in the US... NO country is perfect. NO system is perfectly implemented.

There is no model right now. The only true model that has ever existed was in Madinah and Makkah in the time of the prophet. That's why it's important to look to that to interpret how to implement it now. He's supposed to be our example. It's really a shame that so many folks don't realize that.

Libya and Saudi are two that I know of who try but both are different. Saudi is a much more strict in their interpretations and I don't necessarily agree with everything they do there. Many of the points that Bosco hits on are dead on but they are at least trying and things are changing.

[vartan 0]

people are not hung in the streets of the US to make an example of something.. so no its not the same.

Yes the US has crime .. but there is more regard for life here in my oppinion .. and like I just said .. My oppinion.

Edited August 10, 2006 by vartan

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What I'm trying to understand is if you would, in principle, support (or tolerate) a verdict of execution for a crime homosexuality or adultery as an interpretation of Sharia law?

If not, is it unreasonable for people to protest the decision or lobby the government to change the law to abolish that sentence? I mean, if the law is being applied incorrectly, then it would be logical for people to voice their opinions so that the laws can better reflect the ideal, no?

[Bosco 1]

You didn't but one of the questions I posed to you.

There is no "law" banning women from driving because there is no formal body of law. However, women are not free to drive VP, and I am sure you are aware of this. I am sure you have heard about the tactics of the religious police.

Yes, I have heard of the female pilot. I don't consider this any great accomplishment in the year 2004 when Islam gave women rights rather than took them away.

Yes, women have to fight for rights here but to compare that to Saudi Arabia is utterly asinine.

No, I don't think the problem is corrupt ways being brought in by outsiders. I don't think Saudis are somehow purer and I find the implication racist. I think treating foreign workers like slaves is abhorent, and if anyone is corrupt, it is the enslavers.

I saw the cartoons with my own eyes VP, as well as many other examples of Saudi censorship. Their internet censorship is also well known, including websites that describe human rights in Saudi Arabia. In the comic strips, they only black out the women, not the men, so it is not about "living images". This is how the publications are available on the stand - courtesy of Saudi censors. Buy any magazine or newspaper in Saudi and you can see for yourself. Plenty of "living images" but only the females need censorship, including comic strip characters.

There essentially is no "law" to study in Saudi because they have not codified their laws. However, the abuses of human rights are well documented and anyone can research them. My aunt also so enough of the abuse in her more than 20 years work in a hospital in Saudi Arabia. Anyone can read the newspapers out of Saudi and read their own documentation of what goes on there. If you cannot read Arabic, spend a few weeks reading the Saudi Gazette.

Do you really believe Nour Miyati's employer's were punished fairly? While what happened to her may have been extreme, it is a glaring example of the well-documented systematic abuse of migrant workers. Read your own article - it is the Saudi Govt accusing her of false statements - proving my point they way in favor of Saudi nationals. Why were human rights advocates, representatives from the Indonesian embassy and the attorney they hired denied access to her? Did you look at the pictures of her? I think they are proof enough that something went terribly wrong, regardless of whether or not she "allegedly" retracted her statements later. In the same year there were 800 allegations of torture on Indonesian maids alone. This is clearly not an "isolated" case.

You asked if I think we should abandon sharia because man implements it imperfectly or that we should live in a lawless society. I think at very least the laws of a country need to be codified so people are aware of the laws. I believe trials should be open and not secretive. I believe people have a right to understand the charges they face, have translators made available to them as well as representation. I believe Islam is about mercy, compassion and humanity and not about heavy handed, unbalanced meting out of punishment. I think Islam is a beautiful religion and I think Saudi Arabia is a big black mark that tarnishes the faith. There is nothing anti-Islam about me, and I think Saudi Arabia's sharia and human rights record is far more anti-Islam, far more harmful and far less respectful of Islam than any person on VJ.

VP,

With all respect to you, I think you lack understanding of how Sharia is implemented in Saudi Arabia. Have you ever taken the time to read the reports? Do you realize that non-Saudis are treated far more harshly than Saudis? Have you ever spent time reading the appalling human rights reports that come out of Saudi Arabia? Sharia may be God's law, but it is implemented by man, and man is inherently flawed.

Do you realize Sharia is not codified in Saudi, leaving people unaware of their rights? There was not even a code of criminal procedure until 2002.

How do you justify women not being able to drive from the Qur'an or ahadith?

How do you justify denying women the right to open a bank account the permission of a male when the Qur'an entitles women to their own wealth?

How do you justify women not being allowed to enter fields such as engineering, law and architecture from an Islamic perspective?

Why did it take until April of this year to allow women to work in retail business? Why did women have to buy their lingerie from men prior to this? Is this God's law?

Why are migrant workers not protected from abuse under Saudi Sharia when Islam is about compassion?

Is human trafficking permitted under God's law?

Is blacking out the arms and legs of cartoon characters, like Lois from "Hi and Lois" somehow protecting the religion? Is Lois that tempting?

Take a look at the facts. Look how many non-Saudis are executed compared to non-Saudis. Look at the actual cases, not an idealized Sharia that is not implemented.

Do you know about Nour Miyati?

With all respect to you, I realize that no man is going to implement the sharia perfectly. As a muslim, I would choose a rather flawed attempt at upholding it as opposed to ignoring it altogether though.

I suspect some here are not so much scared of something bad happening as much as they only want to be muslim in name and not actually have to follow any of the laws involved and that is what fuels their hatred of the holy land.

Do you know there is no law on the books forbidding women to drive in Saudi? Theoretically all they have to do is go get one if they want it....

Do you know there is a slightly famous female pilot in Saudi? Only famous because people couldn't believe Saudi (the birthplace of all women's oppression) would allow that Did she have to fight for it? YES. Women have had to fight for our rights here as well. Are things changing regarding women in Saudi? YES.

Do you stop to think maybe Saudi is harsher on non-saudis because perhaps there's been a problem with foreigners coming in and bringing their corrupted ways with them in the past?

Images of any living creature is not allowed... how do you know they didn't just black out her arms and legs to make it so it's not a complete picture? OR do you even know who blacked it out? While I was in Cairo I also saw pics of half naked women and someone had blacked them out as well.... maybe it was just some bored youth?

Have you actually witnessed any of this yourself or are you basing your opinions on those anti-islam websites everyone keeps posting? Have you studied the law in Saudi?

I most certainly do know about Nour Miyati... do you?

New Twist in Nour Miyati Torture Case Baffles All

Maha Akeel, Arab News

JEDDAH, 8 May 2005 — The inquiry report in the case of the Indonesian maid, Nour Miyati, who accused her sponsor and his wife of torture came as a surprise to everyone.

Quoting a statement by the Riyadh governorate, the Saudi Press Agency reported on Friday that during questioning by investigators Miyati herself retracted earlier charges that she was tied up and tortured by her employer. Miyati has now been charged with making false allegations against her employer.

“We were not involved with the investigation and did not attend the questioning of Nour Miyati. We only found out the result from the newspapers, so we don’t know yet why she changed her statement,” M. Sukiarto, labor attaché at the Indonesian Embassy in Riyadh, told Arab News.

In March, Miyati in critical condition was taken to a Riyadh hospital by her sponsor; she had severe injuries causing gangrene to her fingers, toes and part of her right foot. Some of her fingers have been amputated.

She initially claimed that her sponsor had tied her up for a month in a bathroom and beat her severely, injuring her eyes and knocking out several of her teeth.

In the latest inquiry report, Miyati has retracted her accusations of being tied up and tortured. Sukiarto said he would visit her at the hospital today and get a clarification. He will also consult with the lawyer the embassy had assigned to her.

Sukiarto too was kept away from the latest investigation. “Our duty at the embassy is to protect the rights of our citizens and we will follow up on the case to make sure Nour Miyati is treated fairly and receives her rights,” he said.

He said that a diplomatic note had been sent from the Foreign Office in Jakarta to all Indonesian embassies and foreign ministries in the Gulf concerning the treatment of Indonesian workers. “The case of Nour Miyati is considered as a separate and single incident and does not affect the agreements for better treatment of workers, especially housemaids,” he said.

The National Society for Human Rights (NSHR) intervened on behalf of Miyati as soon as they became aware of the case but they too were denied access to Miyati during the investigation. “The investigative committee did not want Miyati to be under any kind of pressure or influence; that is why they kept her out of reach of anyone including her embassy,” said Thuraya Abid Sheikh, a NSHR member who followed up on the case.

She said the society had received a copy of the investigative report the night before it was published in the papers and that it seemed to be thorough. “They have a medical report and took their time in investigating the case so I expect that it was a fair and accurate report,” she told Arab News.

She said that according to the medical report there were no physical injuries on Miyati’s body consistent with torture except those on her face which her sponsor and his wife admitted to. The report suggests that the gangrene was the result of other medical problems suffered by Miyati. Her sponsor and his wife are charged with negligence for not providing her with proper medical care as well as assault and mistreatment.

“Our role now is to follow up on what punishment the sponsor and his wife will get and to ensure that Miyati receives all her rights, whether financial or medical care, before she leaves the country,” Thuraya told Arab News.

Dr. Lubna Al-Ansari, a physician and a senior member of the NSHR, said that although she was not part of the team that followed up the case, as a physician she believes the medical report is not clear enough. “From the medical and psychological assessment of the patient, it is not clear to me what exactly she is suffering from that caused her gangrene and injuries,” she told Arab News. She expects the NSHR to meet Miyati to ensure that she has not been under any kind of pressure and that the investigation was valid.

source

They don't know what's causing the gangrene and she admitted she was lying about some of her allegations...

The man and his wife are being punished for their crime... what more do you want? a time machine??

Are people not mistreated in America as well?

You just said people are not perfect.... because this one Saudi family does this terrible thing that means all of Saudi is bad???? What kind of geralization is that????

Also, I have a question for you... since no man is perfect and it's impossible to implement sharia perfectly, does that give us the right to abandon it altogether? Does that mean the we should live in a lawless society and let folks run amuck because we're not more perfect than they are? There has to be laws.... in our case we have them already... we shouldn't shun them.

[rclouse 0]

There is no model right now. The only true model that has ever existed was in Madinah and Makkah in the time of the prophet. That's why it's important to look to that to interpret how to implement it now. He's supposed to be our example. It's really a shame that so many folks don't realize that.

Spoken like a true fundamentalist. Fundies always look to the past, saying that's the only time the "true" religion was practiced. Instead of living in the present and learning from the past, they try to regress, thinking that will somehow magically make everything perfect. Well, newsflash: things weren't perfect then and they never will be. Religion wasn't perfect, nor perfectly practiced then either.

You believe that the Koran is the perfect word of God, unchanged for over 1300 years. Yet the Prophet was a man, with all of mankind's imperfections, and emphatically stated so by himself many times. Isn't it possible that he got something wrong when reciting the revelations?

I believe Islam is about mercy, compassion and humanity and not about heavy handed, unbalanced meting out of punishment. I think Islam is a beautiful religion and I think Saudi Arabia is a big black mark that tarnishes the faith. There is nothing anti-Islam about me, and I think Saudi Arabia's sharia and human rights record is far more anti-Islam, far more harmful and far less respectful of Islam than any person on VJ.

Hear, hear! About time I heard this other than from inside my own head. That book I read, "The Koran For Dummies" made a HUGE point of the axiom "there is no compusion in religion", and yet in the KSA they violate that at every turn. And yet VP turns to the KSA as an example of Islamic principles. Try again, sister.

[Nizzy 1]

THose statues have been there for a long time and how many Buddhist Afghans have you run into? A statue in no way brings someone to worship it. Heck, I've got statues all over my room of angels and such. I was even recently thinking of adding a statue of Buddha to my collection cause he is so darn cute. So if those BUddhist statues are such an influence then why are there more CHristian converts among Afghans then BUddhist ones? If someone wants to stray from Islam they will do it regardless of any statue. You don't make sense whatsoever.

If the Afghani people/government want those statues there that's your business... it's you country you can do whatever you want... however, if you/they don't want them there you have every right to tear them down or refuse to rebuild them or whatever else you choose because it's your country....

that was my point at the start of this. I was under the impression the Afghani people were being pressured by outside forces. Obviously I am wrong and you speak for all the people there and ya'll want them back so happy building

No, unlike you, I don't claim to be the voice for the masses. I am just saying that this is how I feel and I know many Afghans who feel the same. And, yes, it is ultimately up to Afghans in the country to decide what they want.

[Veiled Princess 1]

I think at very least the laws of a country need to be codified so people are aware of the laws. I believe trials should be open and not secretive. I believe people have a right to understand the charges they face, have translators made available to them as well as representation. I believe Islam is about mercy, compassion and humanity and not about heavy handed, unbalanced meting out of punishment. I think Islam is a beautiful religion

Agreed.

So would it not be better to petition the govt there to make the changes mentioned instead of just trash talking the people in the home of the prophet?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think at very least the laws of a country need to be codified so people are aware of the laws. I believe trials should be open and not secretive. I believe people have a right to understand the charges they face, have translators made available to them as well as representation. I believe Islam is about mercy, compassion and humanity and not about heavy handed, unbalanced meting out of punishment. I think Islam is a beautiful religion

Agreed.

So would it not be better to petition the govt there to make the changes mentioned instead of just trash talking the people in the home of the prophet?

If the rule of islamic law is misapplied or misinterpreted then certainly it should be changed to better reflect the ideal, and such governmental systems that support and promote that misinterpretation should rightly be subject to criticism. Just because they claim to follow the laws of the prophet doesn't preclude them from that criticism.

Clearly there are countries which apply those laws in a manner that totally disregards any reasonable standard of human rights - amputations, stonings, beheadings etc might have been all well and good in the middle ages but they have no place in a modern world. Hard to see how such barbaric practices that kind of barbaric treatment can be defended by those who claim to practice a peaceful interpretation of their religion.

And don't get me wrong - I agree with what Bosco has said - that

...Islam is about mercy, compassion and humanity and not about heavy handed, unbalanced meting out of punishment...

but clearly there is a tendency in certain middle eastern countries towards the latter interpretation. Edited August 11, 2006 by erekose

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

And don't get me wrong - I agree with what Bosco has said - that

...Islam is about mercy, compassion and humanity and not about heavy handed, unbalanced meting out of punishment...

That would be a minority of the countries.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

And don't get me wrong - I agree with what Bosco has said - that

...Islam is about mercy, compassion and humanity and not about heavy handed, unbalanced meting out of punishment...

That would be a minority of the countries.

Only in the middle east.

[Bosco 1]

I think at very least the laws of a country need to be codified so people are aware of the laws. I believe trials should be open and not secretive. I believe people have a right to understand the charges they face, have translators made available to them as well as representation. I believe Islam is about mercy, compassion and humanity and not about heavy handed, unbalanced meting out of punishment. I think Islam is a beautiful religion

Agreed.

So would it not be better to petition the govt there to make the changes mentioned instead of just trash talking the people in the home of the prophet?

Call it trash talking VP, but I believe it is incumbent upon Muslims to speak out against things they feel reflect poorly on Islam. If Muslims expressed their outrage against human rights violations and terrorist acts commited in the name of Islam with the same vehemence as they did the Danish cartoons, there would be a better understanding of what Islam really is about. I am not cutting the Saudi govt a break because they preside in the land of the Prophet's birthplace - if anything, that should make them subject to greater scrutiny.

I think it is poor of you to assume that I only "trash talk" on a message board too and do nothing else to promote the things I believe in. I was trying to bring awareness to the plight of Afghanis under the Taliban long before 9/11 and part of my life has always been trying to better human rights in the ways I am able.

I think at very least the laws of a country need to be codified so people are aware of the laws. I believe trials should be open and not secretive. I believe people have a right to understand the charges they face, have translators made available to them as well as representation. I believe Islam is about mercy, compassion and humanity and not about heavy handed, unbalanced meting out of punishment. I think Islam is a beautiful religion

Agreed.

So would it not be better to petition the govt there to make the changes mentioned instead of just trash talking the people in the home of the prophet?

Call it trash talking VP, but I believe it is incumbent upon Muslims to speak out against things they feel reflect poorly on Islam. If Muslims expressed their outrage against human rights violations and terrorist acts commited in the name of Islam with the same vehemence as they did the Danish cartoons, there would be a better understanding of what Islam really is about. I am not cutting the Saudi govt a break because they preside in the land of the Prophet's birthplace - if anything, that should make them subject to greater scrutiny as they are the guardian's of his birthplace. Instead they choose to tear down any trace of him.

I think it is poor of you to assume that I only "trash talk" on a message board too and do nothing else to promote the things I believe in. I was trying to bring awareness to the plight of Afghanis under the Taliban long before 9/11 and part of my life has always been trying to better human rights in the ways I am able.