Governor of Bamiyan province in Afghanistan wants to put back together Buddha statues blown up by Taleban

[Veiled Princess 1]

So what - I'll respond to whatever post I feel like thank you very much.

Just pointing out that I wasn't using "scripture" to justify my opinion... I was just answering her question.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So what - I'll respond to whatever post I feel like thank you very much.

Just pointing out that I wasn't using "scripture" to justify my opinion... I was just answering her question.

But you already have used it to justify that opinion - your entire justification of the defacement of those statues is rooted in a specific article of sharia law that doesn't permit the existence of religious relics of other civilisations.

[Veiled Princess 1]

But you already have used it to justify that opinion - your entire justification of the defacement of those statues is rooted in a specific article of sharia law that doesn't permit the existence of religious relics of other civilisations.

Oh yes... I did use my scripture to justify my opinion

It's not relics... it's idols... something that is worshipped.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

But you already have used it to justify that opinion - your entire justification of the defacement of those statues is rooted in a specific article of sharia law that doesn't permit the existence of religious relics of other civilisations.

Oh yes... I did use my scripture to justify my opinion

It's not relics... it's idols... something that is worshipped.

Semantics again. An idol is a historical relic. Regardless, an idol doesn't force someone to worship it. The issue again is trust, and a willingness to allow people to make their own mistakes. 'Forcing' religion seems to me completely counter to the idea of having spiritual beliefs in the first place. They're either your own, or their someone else's.

I guess I just don't understand how it is reasonable for a group of people to expect the outside world to change merely to suit their own beliefs.

Out of curiosity, which form of sharia government do you accept? The civil, criminal or both?

[jordanianprincess 0]

Idols are not forbidden in Christianity? What would give you that idea? They are a huge part of Christianity.

(Exo 20:4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

(Exo 23:24) Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

(Exo 34:13) But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

(Exo 34:14) For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

(Lev 26:1) Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

(Num 33:52) Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

(Deu 7:5) But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

(Deu 7:25) The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.

(Deu 12:3) And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.

(2Sa 5:21) And there they left their images, and David and his men burned them.

(1Ki 15:12) And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.

(Isa 2:18) And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

(1Jo 5:21) Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

(Rev 9:20) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Am I reading the wrong bible again?

This is from the KJV BTW...

Note the underlined part above... sounds like God in the bible was also afraid for His followers to fall into idol worship.

That first one there seems pretty clear that this command includes any image of pretty much anything.

The fact that you are quoting scripture with no understanding of it proves my point. You can't comb things over looking for only the things and words that you want. The fact of the matter is there are many different sects of Christianity. In fact maybe you should read about The Iconoclastic Controversy of the 8th and 9th centuries. Or maybe it would help to understand what we consider and Idol/Icon? I am Orthodox and "Idolism" in certain forms are a big part of the religion itself. Crosses, Icons of saints, statues, etc play a big role in many Christian sects. However there are some sects in Christianity that believe it is forbidden. It's all about interpretation, but to say its forbidden is completly absurd.

More on Icons/Idols:

John 1:18: "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has revealed him." When God became incarnate in human form, when the Word became flesh, then men could see the incarnate God in the flesh, and Christ was the image of God. A picture of Christ, then, was a picture of the incarnate God.

On another note, I recently learned that this picture of Jesus is considered forbidden in the sect of Orthodox religion because you can't portray him in the likes of a normal person you would see on the street and must have a halo surrounding his head.

Not allowed

Preferred (this is what we have in our church)

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Intention has a lot to do with it.

I have a very hard time believing that what the Taliban did had anything at all to with 'loving their fellow man'.

[GaryC 7]

VP, I have a question again. Please don't think I am "piling on" because I am truly curious. What little I understand of the Shuria way of Islam I have been led to believe that women cannot socialize with non-relative men. Does that extend to online chats and forums like this? If it does not are you violating the Shuria laws chatting here? Or do they allow it because you are not in person with the men?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

VP, I have a question again. Please don't think I am "piling on" because I am truly curious. What little I understand of the Shuria way of Islam I have been led to believe that women cannot socialize with non-relative men. Does that extend to online chats and forums like this? If it does not are you violating the Shuria laws chatting here? Or do they allow it because you are not in person with the men?

From Islam Q & A. Shaytaan is Satan, btw.

Conversation – whether verbally or in writing – between men and women is permissible in and of itself, but it may be a way of falling into the traps of the Shaytaan.

Whoever knows that he is somewhat weak, and is afraid that he may fall into the traps of the Shaytaan, has to refrain from such conversations, in order to save himself.

Whoever is sure that he will be able to remain steadfast, then we think that it is permissible in his case, but there are certain conditions:

1. The conversation should not be allowed to wander too far from the topic being discussed; or it should be for the purposes of calling others to Islam.

2. They should not let their voices be soft, or use soft and gentle expressions.

3. They should not ask about personal matters that have no bearing on the matter being discussed, such as how old a person is, how tall he or she is, or where he or she lives… etc.

4. Other brothers (in the case of men) or sisters (in the case of women) should take part in the conversation or read the correspondence, so that the Shaytaan will find no way to enter the hearts of the people who are conversing or corresponding.

5. The conversation or correspondence must be halted immediately if the heart starts to stir with feelings of desire.

[GaryC 7]

VP, I have a question again. Please don't think I am "piling on" because I am truly curious. What little I understand of the Shuria way of Islam I have been led to believe that women cannot socialize with non-relative men. Does that extend to online chats and forums like this? If it does not are you violating the Shuria laws chatting here? Or do they allow it because you are not in person with the men?

From Islam Q & A. Shaytaan is Satan, btw.

Conversation – whether verbally or in writing – between men and women is permissible in and of itself, but it may be a way of falling into the traps of the Shaytaan.

Whoever knows that he is somewhat weak, and is afraid that he may fall into the traps of the Shaytaan, has to refrain from such conversations, in order to save himself.

Whoever is sure that he will be able to remain steadfast, then we think that it is permissible in his case, but there are certain conditions:

1. The conversation should not be allowed to wander too far from the topic being discussed; or it should be for the purposes of calling others to Islam.

2. They should not let their voices be soft, or use soft and gentle expressions.

3. They should not ask about personal matters that have no bearing on the matter being discussed, such as how old a person is, how tall he or she is, or where he or she lives… etc.

4. Other brothers (in the case of men) or sisters (in the case of women) should take part in the conversation or read the correspondence, so that the Shaytaan will find no way to enter the hearts of the people who are conversing or corresponding.

5. The conversation or correspondence must be halted immediately if the heart starts to stir with feelings of desire.

Ok, so as long as there are other muslim women taking part in the conversation and there is nothing sexual about the conversation then it's ok. Just wondering.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Ok, so as long as there are other muslim women taking part in the conversation and there is nothing sexual about the conversation then it's ok. Just wondering.

According to Islam Q & A, which so far appears to closely mirror the beliefs of VP.

[Bosco 1]

and from other online scholars....

IslamOnline

Chatting with members of opposite sex, whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims, personally face to face, or on phone or chat lines all fall in the same category. The haram of it is haram, and the halal of it is halal.

Islam does not allow Muslims to be befriending members of opposite sex for the sake of companionship or for casual conversations; it has been forbidden because of its risks; it may entail isolation, lead to unlawful flirting, and engender unlawful thoughts, desires or lusts...............

So engaging in unnecessary chatting may lead to unforeseen consequences. It may also engender doubts and suspicions in our minds as well in the minds of others. So we are best advised to shun them altogether in the first place in order to safeguard our religion and honor.

from Islam TC

To speak freely and beyond necessity is a sin. The same rule applies for chatting on the internet. No person should decide him/herself what is a valid reason in Shari’ah to speak on the phone or chat on the internet. Many people have their own interpretations of genuine need which is not acceptable in Shari’ah. We are aware of many such people who have caused ruin to their lives especially by chatting on the internet with the opposite gender. The expression of smiley faces and sad faces through internet chatting falls in the category of drawing pictures of animate objects which is prohibited. As an alternative, one may express his/her happiness and sadness in words.

One online scholar does not fit all.

[Veiled Princess 1]

VP, I have a question again. Please don't think I am "piling on" because I am truly curious. What little I understand of the Shuria way of Islam I have been led to believe that women cannot socialize with non-relative men. Does that extend to online chats and forums like this? If it does not are you violating the Shuria laws chatting here? Or do they allow it because you are not in person with the men?

I do not socialze in private with non-related men.

Out of curiosity, which form of sharia government do you accept? The civil, criminal or both?

The sharia is the laws of God... it's not a 'government'. I don't pick and choose which laws of God I'd like to follow and leave others.... I accept all the laws God laid down for His servants.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

VP, I have a question again. Please don't think I am "piling on" because I am truly curious. What little I understand of the Shuria way of Islam I have been led to believe that women cannot socialize with non-relative men. Does that extend to online chats and forums like this? If it does not are you violating the Shuria laws chatting here? Or do they allow it because you are not in person with the men?

I do not socialze in private with non-related men.

oooooo you used a smiley! you're going to hell.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Ok, so as long as there are other muslim women taking part in the conversation and there is nothing sexual about the conversation then it's ok. Just wondering.

According to Islam Q & A, which so far appears to closely mirror the beliefs of VP.

Islam Q&A website has nothing to do with my beliefs. I don't think they're salafi because of some other things you have posted before but I don't know because I've never heard of the shaykh who runs it.

BTW, not everyone who claims to be salafi are in fact salafi and there are some who have started out as salafi (and still call themselves that) but have strayed from the creed.

The expression of smiley faces and sad faces through internet chatting falls in the category of drawing pictures of animate objects which is prohibited. As an alternative, one may express his/her happiness and sadness in words.

If the picture was brought to life it would not be able to live... it's not a complete pic... it's just a smiley

VP, I have a question again. Please don't think I am "piling on" because I am truly curious. What little I understand of the Shuria way of Islam I have been led to believe that women cannot socialize with non-relative men. Does that extend to online chats and forums like this? If it does not are you violating the Shuria laws chatting here? Or do they allow it because you are not in person with the men?

I do not socialze in private with non-related men.

oooooo you used a smiley! you're going to hell.

[LaL 418]

The expression of smiley faces and sad faces through internet chatting falls in the category of drawing pictures of animate objects which is prohibited. As an alternative, one may express his/her happiness and sadness in words.

If the picture was brought to life it would not be able to live... it's not a complete pic... it's just a smiley

thats some hysterical logic right there

Edited August 10, 2006 by lal_brandow