Governor of Bamiyan province in Afghanistan wants to put back together Buddha statues blown up by Taleban

[Bosco 1]

Muslims are not mushriks.

The one who is not afraid of falling into shirk is more likely to do so....

Even the prophet Ibrahim feared falling into it and sought refuge in Allah from such....

(Quran 14:35) And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) said: "O my Lord! Make this city (Makkah) one of peace and security, and keep me and my sons away from worshipping idols.

None of us, including those who are considered scholars, are better than Ibrahim.

The prophet forbade the building of idols or structures over graves and making gravesites places of worship because of his (paranoia? ) of his followers falling into shirk. Is anyone on this earth today better than than the prophet or his companions?

How is leaving a house of one of the Prophet's wives intact creating a place of worship? The Prophet is known to have had an appreciation for history and historical sites. People are supposed to be guided by their own faith, not force. By eliminating every temptation, every possibility of shirk, you are not strengthening Islam - you are weakening it. People are then obeying out of lack of choice, compulsion.

Not only that, but it totally misses the point. Intention is an integral part of Islam. If a person intented to pray at some "shirk" site but doesn't do so because the Wahhabis tore it down, it doesn't change a thing. If a person doesn't want to pray, it doesn't matter if the religious police round him up and make him do so.

It has nothing to do with a lack of fear, but forcing people to obey accomplishes nothing but a very hollow faith.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Sounds like something out of a Dan Brown novel In actual fact, there are no such scrolls written by people who knew Jesus. And the Church simply did not have the power to engage in conspiracies like that. Do some reading on the early Church. And please do not insult my faith by accusing Christianity of believing in "three gods"...... no Christian has ever believed that; we are monotheists.

The gospel of Baranabas is claimed to have been written by Barnabas himself, he knew Jesus, he disputed the trinity or the notion that Jesus was divine or the "son" of God and he called Paul one of the deceived. Gospel of Barnabas read the last few chapters....

I do not believe that three seperate beings make up one being (trinity). It was not an insult but an observation.

[Bosco 1]

Take a poor country. Saudi funds a mosque and fills it with its style books, etc. This is what takes root. It is a double-hit - not only does it become their only source, but the role of poverty in extremism is well known. Even with a new mosque in any US city, if their resources are from Saudi, this ideology will spread.

Saudi money is doing exactly this to poor Muslim communities all over Pakistan, India and Bangladesh as well.

Exactly, and this is the problem - not Islam itself.

[derekkj 0]

Hmmmm, born a Christian, becomes a pagan, and now a Muslim. I am just waiting for VP to become a Buddhist. Boy, won't she be pissed then!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If the Taliban weren't true muslims (and if she doesn't support them, at least on this issue) it seems to me that their application of articles of islamic law was illegitimate, no?

I read her as saying even though the Taliban were not true Muslims, a true Muslim ruler of Afghanistan would have the obligation to destroy those statues.

Of course, that does not help us understand why so many previous Islamic rulers of the region let the statues stand.

What I said was it was a call for the ruler to make not the taliban BUT it's already been done and they shouldn't be rebuilt.

The Taliban were the rulers however... Again you resort to being apolitical - government doesn't have the right to do what it likes just because it is the government.

Noone has the right to destroy a country's national heritage - the crucial point is that such things are not the sole property of the government to do with what they like, but of the people of who live there and the legacy of future generations.

[chri'stina 190]

Even though I don't agree with VP, I do think she has the idea right that in Islam, the prophets/Jesus/Abraham are considered actually "muslims". I have read it and heard it from others too. If the quran says it, and VP follows the Quran, then why wouldn't she believe that? Again, I don't agree with it but she is following what it says in the Quran (on this issue...but I have no idea about the other issues being discussed).

Then explain why other muslims don't feel the same way?

Good question. I really don't know. My guesses (just guesses tho) would be either they don't know what the Quran says or don't follow it... or the term 'submitting to God' is interpreted differently, one way meaning stricly Muslim/Islam as their religion, and for others meaning just submitted to God but not strictly as a muslim. I don't know.

With all due respect, it could be the other way around. There are many wonderful members in VJ that do follow the Quran and are good muslims who would disagree and be offended by this. Everyone does interpret things differently but to say they don't know Islam or don't follow Islam is incorrect.

Which muslims disagree with it? It's pretty much stated in the Qur'an that God has given His religion to His messangers throughout time, and that religion is submission to God. If a messenger follows that religion, he submits to God, ie he is a muslim.

At least from my knowledge, it's pretty much the majority view that muslims believe all past prophets preached and followed Islam.

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. (3:52)

Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. (2:136)

Thank you Rahma for this post. I also was under the impression that it was commonly accepted, and I did not know there really was a debate among Muslims on the issue of whether to call Abraham, Jesus, other Prophets as true Muslims or not. That is why what I wrote I did not consider offensive, I was just stating possible reasons why some would not believe it. (I think you understand that)

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

Hmmmm, born a Christian, becomes a pagan, and now a Muslim. I am just waiting for VP to become a Buddhist. Boy, won't she be pissed then!

vp's next religion change in 5.......4....3.......2....

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think what we are seeing here is not 'religion' but an example of religiosity.

[chri'stina 190]

Sounds like something out of a Dan Brown novel In actual fact, there are no such scrolls written by people who knew Jesus. And the Church simply did not have the power to engage in conspiracies like that. Do some reading on the early Church. And please do not insult my faith by accusing Christianity of believing in "three gods"...... no Christian has ever believed that; we are monotheists.

The gospel of Baranabas is claimed to have been written by Barnabas himself, he knew Jesus, he disputed the trinity or the notion that Jesus was divine or the "son" of God and he called Paul one of the deceived. Gospel of Barnabas read the last few chapters....

I do not believe that three seperate beings make up one being (trinity). It was not an insult but an observation.

There is also the Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Mary. There is no 100% agreement between scholars that they are accurate. They are conspiracy books. Neither of the 2 books I mentioned were actually written by Mary or Judas but were written later on going through hear-say and not witnesses to the event. The New Testament writers were witnesses themselves to events they were writing about. So why should I ignore 27 books in the N.T. that were written by different men, in different places, all influenced by the same God, and all telling a similar story, for one book where the person doesn't seem to agree. And why would you believe the Gospel of Barnabas alone is not corrupted as a book, but the whole bible is.

[incanada1234 0]

Hmmmm, born a Christian, becomes a pagan, and now a Muslim. I am just waiting for VP to become a Buddhist. Boy, won't she be pissed then!

vp's next religion change in 5.......4....3.......2....

Are we taking bets? Cuz I'm going with mormonism for her next one. Afterall, like islam, the founder of mormonism talked to God and wrote a holy book claiming it to be truer than the Bible.

Come on vp, whaddya say!

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Hmmmm, born a Christian, becomes a pagan, and now a Muslim. I am just waiting for VP to become a Buddhist. Boy, won't she be pissed then!

vp's next religion change in 5.......4....3.......2....

Are we taking bets? Cuz I'm going with mormonism for her next one. Afterall, like islam, the founder of mormonism talked to God and wrote a holy book claiming it to be truer than the Bible.

Come on vp, whaddya say!

I'm guessing her husband is as extreme as she is. Which means if she tries to leave Islam, he will probably have to kill her.

[Bosco 1]

I think this really comes down to semantics and how we define Muslim/Islam. If you are defining Muslim as "believer", i.e. - believer in one God, than yes, all the Prophets would be considered Muslims/believers.

However, if you are applying the contemporary understanding of Muslim, someone who not only believes in one God but as Muhammad as his messenger, than no - they were not Muslims.

I think this is what JP was getting at in re-writing history.

Even though I don't agree with VP, I do think she has the idea right that in Islam, the prophets/Jesus/Abraham are considered actually "muslims". I have read it and heard it from others too. If the quran says it, and VP follows the Quran, then why wouldn't she believe that? Again, I don't agree with it but she is following what it says in the Quran (on this issue...but I have no idea about the other issues being discussed).

Then explain why other muslims don't feel the same way?

Good question. I really don't know. My guesses (just guesses tho) would be either they don't know what the Quran says or don't follow it... or the term 'submitting to God' is interpreted differently, one way meaning stricly Muslim/Islam as their religion, and for others meaning just submitted to God but not strictly as a muslim. I don't know.

With all due respect, it could be the other way around. There are many wonderful members in VJ that do follow the Quran and are good muslims who would disagree and be offended by this. Everyone does interpret things differently but to say they don't know Islam or don't follow Islam is incorrect.

Which muslims disagree with it? It's pretty much stated in the Qur'an that God has given His religion to His messangers throughout time, and that religion is submission to God. If a messenger follows that religion, he submits to God, ie he is a muslim.

At least from my knowledge, it's pretty much the majority view that muslims believe all past prophets preached and followed Islam.

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. (3:52)

Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. (2:136)

Thank you Rahma for this post. I also was under the impression that it was commonly accepted, and I did not know there really was a debate among Muslims on the issue of whether to call Abraham, Jesus, other Prophets as true Muslims or not. That is why what I wrote I did not consider offensive, I was just stating possible reasons why some would not believe it. (I think you understand that)

[incanada1234 0]

Hmmmm, born a Christian, becomes a pagan, and now a Muslim. I am just waiting for VP to become a Buddhist. Boy, won't she be pissed then!

vp's next religion change in 5.......4....3.......2....

Are we taking bets? Cuz I'm going with mormonism for her next one. Afterall, like islam, the founder of mormonism talked to God and wrote a holy book claiming it to be truer than the Bible.

Come on vp, whaddya say!

I'm guessing her husband is as extreme as she is. Which means if she tries to leave Islam, he will probably have to kill her.

Oh dear, that won't do. Well vp, looks like you'll be converting in secret.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Hmmmm, born a Christian, becomes a pagan, and now a Muslim. I am just waiting for VP to become a Buddhist. Boy, won't she be pissed then!

Everyone is born as a muslim... I was raised a christian.

[incanada1234 0]

Everyone is born as a muslim...

I wasn't.