Governor of Bamiyan province in Afghanistan wants to put back together Buddha statues blown up by Taleban

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

so lemme see if i understand this: when a country becomes predominantly a certain religion, everything about that country that pertains to other religions should be wiped out, removed, whatever, because it's not the prevailing viewpoint.

given that, bring on the bulldozers, the indian burial grounds are no longer sacred.

That is not what I said..... We are discussing a country that is governed by the laws of the sharia... many (if not most) muslim countries today do not implement the sharia in their governments. The sharia does not allow for idols... making it against the law there.

you're missing it but that is what you are advocating! you're making excuses for doing so all based on laws of the sharia. the statues that are part of this topic predate muslim religion. and as asked earlier, what about the pyramids? should they too be razed? my guess, given your previous answers, is yes!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

That is not what I said..... We are discussing a country that is governed by the laws of the sharia... many (if not most) muslim countries today do not implement the sharia in their governments. The sharia does not allow for idols... making it against the law there.

So in essence you are saying that the long-dead builders of those statues, in distant antiquity, should have considered the fact that what they were doing would be against the law 1500 - 2000 years later... Sorry but that's ridiculous - and if everyone thought that way mankind would still be living in trees.

For some reason I'm reminded of Charles II of England, who dug up Cromwell after his death and hung drew and quartered the body in revenge for what Cromwell did to his father..

Edited August 9, 2006 by erekose

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I didn't think there would be many people (in the modern world), who would support book burning - but after hearing this I think I would be surprised

There are many like her. Most of them either don't have the English to post on a forum like this or prefer to associate with like-minded individuals only (there are rules against associating with the kuffar too much).

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Its similar to someone arguing that the massive destruction of the amazon rainforest and the dumping millions of gallons of toxic waste into the oceans are somehow 'good' ideas. Its against all norms of rational common sense.

[Bosco 1]

It should be noted that the Salafis/Wahhabis are also busy destroying Islamic historial sites. Islamica magazine covered it extensively in an issue earlier this year. Here is one article that I was able to find online Destruction of Mecca. For example, they have destroyed the house of the Prophet's first wife, Khadija, and in its place put public toilets.

What is at issue is they are overly paranoid that people will commit "shirk" - in other words, worship something other than God, like a building. They seem unable to decipher between an appreciation for history and worship. Instead of letting people guide their own faith/behavior, they destroy things to prevent "sin". They make prayer and hijab mandatory, rather than choice.

I am including a commentary by Mohamed Zakariya, best know as the man who designed the Eid postage stamp (also a master calligrapher) has to say about not only the destruction but on Salafis. I believe VP is the only Salafi in this forum, and it may shed light as to why there seems to be so much disagreement. The site Gupt regularly posts from Islam-QA, is also Salafi.

Comment

Rumors of archaeological discoveries in Mecca have been circulating for some time. What are the implications if these rumors are true?

Let me be clear: I have no first-hand knowledge of the matter and no professional knowledge of archaeology. Nor do I have any political agenda. Instead, I wish to comment purely as a concerned observer and practicing Muslim.

I like to look at Islamic matters through the lens of perception formed by my Anglo-American upbringing and nearly a half-century of trying to find my way in our complex and controversial religion while maintaining a normal and optimistic outlook on life. In my view, steadfastness is one thing; obstinacy is another. Traditionally, for Muslims, political change has come through violence or coercion. This pathology has to be derailed. It is obstinacy—not steadfastness—to defend a view that impedes the public welfare.

Are momentous archaeological finds in fact being covered up? The behavior of the Salafists lends credence to the rumors. Smug and self-satisfied, running their closed loop of reasoning, they let nothing get in, nothing get out. As a result, nothing improves. Their cult-like paranoia has pervaded most of the Muslim world, so that Salafist concepts are accepted as normative when, in fact, they are way off base. I have seen the ugly signs at historical sites all over Medina, attaching to any Muslim who merely says a dua there the dreaded allegation of shirk. This is a travesty. Islam is large. Muslims are not mushriks.

How do the Salafists get away with making ordinary Muslims ashamed of their basic human feelings? When the tsunami killed so many in Indonesia, it was heart rending to hear poor, innocent Muslims—fishermen, farmers, shopkeepers, all driven by unbearable grief— racked with guilt that they might have caused this horror by not being sincere enough, strict enough in their Islam.

It was the Salafists who told them that. But if God slaughtered those whose faith was not strong enough, we would all be dead. That is primitive thinking. That is ideological Islam—not the religion put forth by the tried and true imams, which has been the guide for the perplexed multitudes for 14 centuries.

The Salafists must stop impeding archaeological investigation. Let Muslim archaeologists go in, with sensitivity and concern, and find out what is really there, if anything. There is nothing to fear and much to gain. We might learn important truths about the early history of Islam and, in the process, learn something about ourselves and earn the world’s respect.

Real religion is hard. It requires the heart and brain to work together. As deeply as it is a matter of spirit, it is also a matter of intellect. Our religious leaders should be helping us along this path, but instead they are dumbing the religion down, turning it into a mishmash of slogans and jingles, mumbled incantations, superstitious talismans to ward off benumbing fear—in short, magic. This seems more like propitiation for an angry deity, more like a Baal or Moloch than the Light of the Heavens and the Earth.

The ascendancy of the Salafists deprives Muslims of the difficulty and complexity—the depth and texture— of our religion and, ultimately, of its essential meaning. It deprives us of the chance to drink of the elixir of knowledge and become fully realized adults.

Mohamed Zakariya is a leading American Muslim master calligrapher.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Its similar to someone arguing that the massive destruction of the amazon rainforest and the dumping millions of gallons of toxic waste into the oceans are somehow 'good' ideas. Its against all norms of rational common sense.

That's absurd.... what good does having those statues stand in a muslim country hold? It is against the religion. That's it.

[incanada1234 0]

VP, you are straight up NUTS.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Bosco,

Interesting. Any statistics on how many Salafis there are in the world or in the US? And what kind of positions of power do they hold? Just curious.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Its similar to someone arguing that the massive destruction of the amazon rainforest and the dumping millions of gallons of toxic waste into the oceans are somehow 'good' ideas. Its against all norms of rational common sense.

That's absurd.... what good does having those statues stand in a muslim country hold? It is against the religion. That's it.

Conversely, what actual harm do they actually do - again bearing in mind that the statues were there first it seems a little churlish for the current tenants of the land to suddenly be offended by something that has been there centuries before muslims assumed control of that country?

More specifically, why should the world itself be forced to change merely to accommodate a narrowly interpreted belief system?

Edited August 9, 2006 by erekose

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Its similar to someone arguing that the massive destruction of the amazon rainforest and the dumping millions of gallons of toxic waste into the oceans are somehow 'good' ideas. Its against all norms of rational common sense.

That's absurd.... what good does having those statues stand in a muslim country hold? It is against the religion. That's it.

Conversely, what actual harm do they actually do...

You're trying to look at this rationally... to her, this is theological. To let the statues stand is sinful. That is the harm.

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

Its similar to someone arguing that the massive destruction of the amazon rainforest and the dumping millions of gallons of toxic waste into the oceans are somehow 'good' ideas. Its against all norms of rational common sense.

That's absurd.... what good does having those statues stand in a muslim country hold? It is against the religion. That's it.

oh yes, it's against the religion. the standard reply. and when you can't think, vp, quote scripture.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Its similar to someone arguing that the massive destruction of the amazon rainforest and the dumping millions of gallons of toxic waste into the oceans are somehow 'good' ideas. Its against all norms of rational common sense.

That's absurd.... what good does having those statues stand in a muslim country hold? It is against the religion. That's it.

oh yes, it's against the religion. the standard reply. and when you can't think, vp, quote scripture.

But that's the beauty of having religion. You don't have to do any thinking, someone else did all the thinking for you!

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Its similar to someone arguing that the massive destruction of the amazon rainforest and the dumping millions of gallons of toxic waste into the oceans are somehow 'good' ideas. Its against all norms of rational common sense.

That's absurd.... what good does having those statues stand in a muslim country hold? It is against the religion. That's it.

It would show tolerance. That's good.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Muslims are not mushriks.

The one who is not afraid of falling into shirk is more likely to do so....

Even the prophet Ibrahim feared falling into it and sought refuge in Allah from such....

(Quran 14:35) And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) said: "O my Lord! Make this city (Makkah) one of peace and security, and keep me and my sons away from worshipping idols.

None of us, including those who are considered scholars, are better than Ibrahim.

The prophet forbade the building of idols or structures over graves and making gravesites places of worship because of his (paranoia? ) of his followers falling into shirk. Is anyone on this earth today better than than the prophet or his companions?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You're trying to look at this rationally... to her, this is theological. To let the statues stand is sinful. That is the harm.

Rationality exposes the weaknesses of the argument - clearly if God appeared in a vision and told her to jump off a cliff, she would do it....

The fact remains that muslims were able to live with those statues for many centuries. It was only when the Taliban assumed power (whom she has already stated were not "true" muslims) that it became a problem. If the Taliban weren't true muslims (and if she doesn't support them, at least on this issue) it seems to me that their application of articles of islamic law was illegitimate, no?

Edited August 9, 2006 by erekose