Top Shot

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Ok, so I watched this on Hulu (I recommend that so you can skip all the reality show BS) I can only say I was ashamed of anyone of those guys that says they are a marksman or ####### did they do to the guns sights? Adjust them with a ball pein hammer? It was painful to watch a supposed marksman bang away some 30 rounds trying to hit a 6" target at 100 yards...which he never did.

As to the rifles, and I mention that the rifles were RUSSIAN and therefore relevent to the RUB forum, not off topic.

Choosing a M1891 Moisin Nagant to represent a rifle from the "Korean War" WHAT????????? The rifles of that design the North Koreans and Chinese had were nearly exclusively Chinese copies, NOT M1891.s and any Russian rifles they had were hand-me-downs. Interestingly, nearly ALL the Russian M1891s made for WW2 were made by Westinghouse in New Jersey. And the SVT40 to represent a rifle from WW2???? Ok, it was used in WW2 but was such a tiny percentage of the total. Anyway, they also erred in saying the Springfiled was "the longest serving of the 4 rifles" That title would have to go to the M1891 Moisin Nagant, at least as an official rifle of the country. To say that M1903's Springfields were used in Viet Nam is a stretch, they were sort of, 03A4's were used as sniper rifles but not as an official rifle...and so was the M1891 Moisin Nagant which is 12 years older than the Springfield. The 1903A4 was not developed until 1942 anyway and is really not the same rifle as the M1903 except in basic function, and in itself was NEVER the standard rifle of the US military, it was a substitute standard. Watch closely and you will notice at least 1 of the Springfields is the Mk1 model with the receiver cut for the Pedersen device.

I will never argue with any excuse for choosing the M14. Only one of the teams even got to the point that they got to use the M14 since the other team found it impossible to hit a 100 yd. target with a M1903

The challenges seem a bit hokey to me but it is TV, what the heck. We shouldn't be too critical of firearms represented positively, but Jeezum Crow, get someone that can shoot! I wonder what the next show will bring. There is suposed to be competitions (if one can call it that) with handguns and also archery equipment.

[CDAgirlMI 51]

My husband & I have shot pistol competitions with a couple of the guys on the show.

Mike Seeklander (the guy who was eliminated) said on a personal site that the rifle's sights were loose & he had to tighten them part way through.

The spotter was as useless as tits on a bull.

[AKguy 1]

They have a contestant from Survivor as the host, how good do you expect it to be? And the fact the challenges and even the words coming out of this hosts mouth are so Survivorish it's a little sickening...

I watched it, I'll wait to see how the second ep is before I choose not to watch it anymore.

[AKguy 1]

Seems more that a few feel the same way.

http://community.history.com/forums/170/

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Seems more that a few feel the same way.

http://community.history.com/forums/170/

The best thing I can say is that it did not portray firearms in a bad light, in my opinion.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

My husband & I have shot pistol competitions with a couple of the guys on the show.

Mike Seeklander (the guy who was eliminated) said on a personal site that the rifle's sights were loose & he had to tighten them part way through.

The spotter was as useless as tits on a bull.

I have shot in hi-power competition, Service Rifle and Match Rifle, since 1970. A spotter is not needed for firing shots at a 6" target at 100 yards with a M1903. A spotter WOULD be useless if the sights are loose.

Spotters are used in competition (sometimes, or usually you spot for yourself) when you are firing multiple shots (20 in 20 minutes for prone slow fire and 600 meters) and can be useful at that time. When shooting at a "hit or miss" 6" exploding disc from 100 yards, there is no need for a spotter.

Mike Seeklander, if familar with firearms, should have realized in about 2 shots there was something seriously wrong with the sights and simply sighted down the barrel without the use of the sights at all.

The kid that beat Mike Seeklander in the elimination competition seemd to be the only one adept at handling firearms. His is on the USA Hi-power rifle team ...and looks like it.

That said, the whole crawling under barbed wire, wading through water to get to the firing line is overdone TV Bullsh*t, kind of like the old "Battle of the network T*ts and @sses" But without the T&As. Shooting is too much a mental game to be a good spectator sport so I understand they have to be stupid and theatrical for the audiance. Obviously, itIS the history channel, the chose some historical fireams. The M14 is still seen on the firing line in competition fairly often as is the M1, you almost never see a M1903 or M1903A3 anymore. They were fairly popular when I started shooting. The AR15 has now taken over both the service rifle and match rifle class. The rifle specimens did not look so good, either. Seemed kind of rough looking. I was thinking that the barrel bore on those M1903s has got to look like an old rotten water pipe!

[slim 1,525]

This Sunday was one of the best Sundays I've had in quite a while. Not only did I get to spend time with my father watching a great NASCAR race, I got to watch a show about Marksmanship. I can't remember the last time that's happened.

By Sunday night at 11:00, I too, was a little disappointed.

After spending the last two years trying to pass on the tradition of Marksmanship and American Heritage to the masses, I can tell you, this is what it's like in it's infancy stages. It is frustrating. It is not always 100% accurate and it's not always the "best" it could be.

Top Shot is not a show for guys like us. Top Shot isn't a show that's going to make "shooters" better shooters. As a matter of fact, it's probably going to bug us more than it's going to entertain us. We're going to get on here after each episode and say things like, "I can't believe they used those beautiful rifles to MISS targets at 100 yards. I could've made that shot. Hell, my wife could've made that shot. I think my kids could've made that shot, and they're still in kindergarten."

I posted something on my facebook profile akin to the shots they made being like calling in Brett Favre to "pass" to the RB out of the backfield. Come on! A Springfield at 50 yards? Really?

But, Top Shot is a show that's going to take the Survivor crowd and possibly some of the Amazing Race, Lost, and God willing, the American Idol crowd, and it's going to introduce them to marksmanship. It may not be perfect and it was way too cheezy and dramatic for my tastes, but - and this is the most important part - it's going to show soccer moms that it's safe for their kids and families to head out to the shooting range together and participate in preserving our uniquely American heritage.

Perhaps just maybe Top Shot will be the best new show of the season. Not for it's accuracy... but for it's aim.

The challenges seem a bit hokey to me but it is TV, what the heck. We shouldn't be too critical of firearms represented positively, but Jeezum Crow, get someone that can shoot! I wonder what the next show will bring. There is suposed to be competitions (if one can call it that) with handguns and also archery equipment.

This show is "Survivor: shooting range" not "NRA service-grade competion on the History Channel." If we can bite our tongues and sit there twiddling our thumbs, grin and bear it for a while, we just might be rewarded for our efforts.

What's going to happen is someone you know, who knows you as "the gun guy" is going to approach you and say, "hey Gary, I've been watching that show Top Shot - know what I'm talking about? - and anyway, they were shooting this big rifle and this target and the one team just couldn't hit the darn thing and the other team smoked 'em all. Why is that?"

If we can (again) bite our tongue and resist that urge to get all into "well, the simple answer is that guy was a dumbass because the rifle he was using was capable of making hits out past 1,000 yards pretty easily and instead of doing what he should've done..." we can take this opportunity to answer their question with a simple answer -

"Why don't I take you to the range and show you. I have a rifle just like the one they were using on that show (they don't know the difference between an '03 and a 91/30 anyway) and if you want, I'll not only show you how to do it - I'll let you shoot it. Your wife and kids too! My treat. All you have to do is show up."

Hook, line and sinker. One trip to the range is all it takes for the anti-gunners to be turned. And if my feelings on this show are correct, it's not going to be hard-core gun guys who LOVE this show... it's going to be the soccer mom who now has a half-dozen rifles in the back of her minivan.

The best thing I can say is that it did not portray firearms in a bad light, in my opinion.

And that's the real winner. Sure it wasn't 100% accurate, but they don't know any better anyway. The target demographic of this show is the Survivor crowd that's now out of school and can stay up late to watch it. I'm telling you, the History Channel is doing a whole bunch to help us out.

When shooting at a "hit or miss" 6" exploding disc from 100 yards, there is no need for a spotter.

Mike Seeklander, if familar with firearms, should have realized in about 2 shots there was something seriously wrong with the sights and simply sighted down the barrel without the use of the sights at all.

I think this was intentionally done to add drama to the show. I was wondering after the second or third shot why he didn't hand the rifle back to his spotter since the spotter had already proven he could hit with it. I was also wondering why the spotters were even using the glass. The girl took forever to find her target through the scope and I was literally yelling at my TV screen "just look at the target you dumb b!tch!" Then I switched to "have the girl shoot if you can't hit it!"

I'm guessing the rules specified that the shooters could only engage one target each and the spotters "had to" use the glass.

Once again, how we'd do it in real life is a lot different than what they did on the show. But, I like how they introduced the american (little a again) public to shooter/spotter teams. Yes it sucks they didn't show them how it really works and the correct way to do things, field expedient fixes, etc. But they're not ready for that anyway. We can field their questions when they fire 'em our way.

The kid that beat Mike Seeklander in the elimination competition seemd to be the only one adept at handling firearms. His is on the USA Hi-power rifle team ...and looks like it.

That was the best display of marksmanship I've seen on TV since the Top Sniper show on the Military Channel.

In Top Sniper they do a competion where they actually paste faces on targets and the shooter/spotter team has to not only ID and engage the right target within a time limit, they get docked points for hitting the wrong ones. They also shoot "hostiles" that move through "enemies" at 600+ yards. Very cool show but since it's the military, police, agencies, etc., it shows "how it's done" and not "how it looks cool on TV." Definitely a good show to check out.

I saw another marksmanship test on TV once and I don't remember what show it was on but the police agency trained it's snipers by attaching inflated balloons to remote control cars and then they took turns driving the cars around and engaging the balloons. They mixed colors to simulate friendlies and hostiles too. Great way to do it on the cheap yet still simulate moving targets.

That said, the whole crawling under barbed wire, wading through water to get to the firing line is overdone TV Bullsh*t, kind of like the old "Battle of the network T*ts and @sses" But without the T&As.

There was a show on the USA network about 5 years ago right after Survivor got really popular. It was hosted by the old guy Rudy who was on Survivor (actually I just googled it and it was from 2002. Wow how time flies. It was called Combat Missions)and it was basically the same thing. Two teams would compete in challenges, the losing team would vote someone off. This show was awesome. The challenges were things like infiltrate this village and rescue two hostages without getting shot by opposition forces. It was really cool and the cast was made up of ex-CIA operators, Delta Force, SEALs, etc.

The only problem was - THERE WAS NO DRAMA!

The team that lost the mission would have a little pow-wow, the dude that messed up worst or who was weakest link would shake hands, wish everyone well, and then limp out the door. Even if someone else messed up, the guy with the broken ankle walked out. The whole show was made up of men who understood what it took to accomplish a mission. They had no interest in "winning" the show, they simply wanted their team to move on to the next event.

To this day, I haven't found a better illustration of what it's like to work in small-unit teams in the military. While it's not great for ratings, it is an awesome inside look at the sacrifice and dedication these guys go through every day so we can be free.

Shooting is too much a mental game to be a good spectator sport so I understand they have to be stupid and theatrical for the audiance.

And hopefully that'll bring the audience into the "real" world of shooting.

I also suspect that as the size of the teams gets smaller we'll start seeing truer tests of marksmanship than the "show" they put on for the team challenge. The elimination challenge, while not extremely difficult, wasn't something the average joe could just plop down and do. As the kid said at the end, the advantage he had was wind doping skills, and you don't hone those at the carnival!

However... you can learn them at an Appleseed!

[CDAgirlMI 51]

The kid that beat Mike Seeklander in the elimination competition seemd to be the only one adept at handling firearms. His is on the USA Hi-power rifle team ...and looks like it.

No doubt he was great.....with the rifle.

Next week when they do pistols, he won't be in the top few.

[baron555 934]

Here are some real HOT Shots:

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Your points are well taken Slim and I do not criticize firearmsbeing portrayed in a good light, which I have mentioned.

The rifles they used were all classics and I wish thay had chosen some good specimens and had them sighted professionally before giving them over for the show, but the again, had they aced all the targets with one shot (which all of those rifles are EASILY capable of doing). it would be a boring thing to watch except for rifle accuracy fanatics like me. Colonel Whelen was right...only accurate rifles are interesting.

If anyone looks at that show again, though, check out how the young guy handles that M700 Remington in the elimnation shoot. THAT is a guy confident with firearms. You can tell the spotter was only window dressing for the show, he wasn't needed and that was pretty evident. The way he manipulates the bolt handle with his fingers only...he is a bolt gun shooter and a short action bolt gun shooter to be more precise. He flicks that bolt bolt as to the manner born. Good for him. The others grab the bolts and act like they are prying loose a rim from a tire. A man comfortable with firearms is so easy to spot. You rarely see a bolt gun shooter, outside the Olympics, that can handle the bolt rifle like that.

And yes, Baron, those are some good shots and they didn't get that way needing 30 shots to hit a 6" target at 100 yards.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Here are some real HOT Shots:

I believe Ludmilla Pavlechenko was the top sniper or top woman sniper, yes? Bottom photo.

[baron555 934]

I believe Ludmilla Pavlechenko was the top sniper or top woman sniper, yes? Bottom photo.

Yes, some 309 kills. The first two photos are of Roza Shanina.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Yes, some 309 kills. The first two photos are of Roza Shanina.

She didn't get to 309 kills needing more than 309 shots, either. Snipers that need more than one shot per kill don't live long.

[slim 1,525]

New episode tonight at 10:00. Supposed to be pistols this time. We'll see if "the sights were messed up" again this time.

[CDAgirlMI 51]

Just got back from a match in Illinois this weekend. Both Blake Miguez & Caleb Giddings were there. We asked about the show, obviously.

They told us a few things, but not surprisingly, they couldn't tell us too much, lol.