Adverts to promote positive view of Muslims

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

By the way there is an interesting article about this topic on CNN today.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/personal/06/09/o.daughter.muslim.scarf/index.html?hpt=Sbin

[Peikko 1,575]

I have no doubt that the Hijab was originally developed with the idea of female repression. However, these days it seems that many women honestly wear such items because they want to be modestly dressed and they do so of their own accord.

I think modern feminism is about wearing what the woman actually wants to wear be it a full robe or a bikini without regard to the perceptions of men.

Obviously if a husband is demanding that a woman wear something then that's another issue.

Iran might be a good example of the Hijab being used in a repressive manner because woman simply have no choice. Obviously many women there would NOT wear it if they weren't forced too...just think of the 70's there. But when women truly have freedom of choice I see no issue with it. (With the exception of face covering)

Surely, placing a value on clothing as an expression of modesty necessarily gives credence to all the negative associations that 'not dressing modestly' has traditionally implied? By extension, society at large can and does place a contextual value on a woman's choice of clothing. That is the crux of the matter and that is what is wrong with the symbolic use of clothing as an expression of modesty. If a woman chooses to wear trousers because she likes them, that's fine and dandy, it is even fine and dandy if she chooses to wear them for any number of other personal reasons but if she chooses to wear them because it expresses her modesty, then that's a continuation of the insidious use of clothing to make a value judgment on a woman's sexual availability and behaviour, and that is terribly wrong.

As to the men who do not respect strippers simply because they are stippers, well, that's a nice eye opener for the rest of us.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Surely, placing a value on clothing as an expression of modesty necessarily gives credence to all the negative associations that 'not dressing modestly' has traditionally implied? By extension, society at large can and does place a contextual value on a woman's choice of clothing. That is the crux of the matter and that is what is wrong with the symbolic use of clothing as an expression of modesty. If a woman chooses to wear trousers because she likes them, that's fine and dandy, it is even fine and dandy if she chooses to wear them for any number of other personal reasons but if she chooses to wear them because it expresses her modesty, then that's a continuation of the insidious use of clothing to make a value judgment on a woman's sexual availability and behaviour, and that is terribly wrong.

As to the men who do not respect strippers simply because they are stippers, well, that's a nice eye opener for the rest of us.

But covering of skin is seen as modesty the world around. I would say I dress modestly for instance, I rarely wear shorts, I own very few short sleeve shirts etc.

If I walked in fully clothed and another man was wearing shorts and a tight t shirt I would be seen as more modestly dressed even though I'm male.

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

Surely, placing a value on clothing as an expression of modesty necessarily gives credence to all the negative associations that 'not dressing modestly' has traditionally implied? By extension, society at large can and does place a contextual value on a woman's choice of clothing. That is the crux of the matter and that is what is wrong with the symbolic use of clothing as an expression of modesty. If a woman chooses to wear trousers because she likes them, that's fine and dandy, it is even fine and dandy if she chooses to wear them for any number of other personal reasons but if she chooses to wear them because it expresses her modesty, then that's a continuation of the insidious use of clothing to make a value judgment on a woman's sexual availability and behaviour, and that is terribly wrong.

As to the men who do not respect strippers simply because they are stippers, well, that's a nice eye opener for the rest of us.

i wasn't aware anyone had to respect stippers.

[Peikko 1,575]

By the way there is an interesting article about this topic on CNN today.

http://www.cnn.com/2...x.html?hpt=Sbin

It is interesting, and equally disturbing that women feel they must wear certain clothing as a symbol of their sexual availability or to fit in, or be popular. Clothing should not have this symbolic value period. Clothing is practical and can be beautiful but it should not be used instead of direct communication.

[Peikko 1,575]

i wasn't aware anyone had to respect stippers.

You do not have to respect anyone at all, but what you seem to be suggesting is that it is not only ok, but perfectly reasonable and normal to not respect someone simply because they strip. That says more about you than it does about strippers.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It's a bit of a weird thing to say - if a guy who goes to strip clubs doesn't respect the women who strip for the purposes of his entertainment, can that guy have any respect for himself for seeking out that form of entertainment?

Surely on some level youd have to self loathe. I imagine it's not muh different from the men who have sex with prostitutes - treat the women as disposable sex objects, yet the guy is paying for the use of her body. Perhaps the guy has less respect for himself than he does for sex workers.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Its a MADHOUSE

[Peikko 1,575]

It's a bit of a weird thing to say - if a guy who goes to strip clubs doesn't respect the women who strip for the purposes of his entertainment, can that guy have any respect for himself for seeking out that form of entertainment?

Surely on some level youd have to self loathe. I imagine it's not muh different from the men who have sex with prostitutes - treat the women as disposable sex objects, yet the guy is paying for the use of her body. Perhaps the guy has less respect for himself than he does for sex workers.

I could not agree more. Anyone who would ogle strippers all the while professing lack of respect for the same women is necessarily morally bankrupt, or at the very least confused. The strippers are performing in a stylistically sexual way, but they are not really 'available' to the audience at all. Some strippers may choose to sell their bodies as well, and that is a whole other topic which is straying way beyond the context of clothing denoting modesty or not.

[justashooter 430]

I could not agree more. Anyone who would ogle strippers all the while professing lack of respect for the same women is necessarily morally bankrupt, or at the very least confused. The strippers are performing in a stylistically sexual way, but they are not really 'available' to the audience at all. Some strippers may choose to sell their bodies as well, and that is a whole other topic which is straying way beyond the context of clothing denoting modesty or not.

your perception of the concepts of "art" and "entertainment" are limited by your own schema.

attempting to demonise those without such limitation is puerile, at best.

projecting your own concepts upon their actions is infantile.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

your perception of the concepts of "art" and "entertainment" are limited by your own schema.

attempting to demonise those without such limitation is puerile, at best.

projecting your own concepts upon their actions is infantile.

Trying to pretend that one who indulges in adult entertainments can have respect for himself when he has no respect for the people who provide his "entertainment" is self delusion. The rest is denial and egotistical BS that no amount of "big words" can conceal.

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

You do not have to respect anyone at all, but what you seem to be suggesting is that it is not only ok, but perfectly reasonable and normal to not respect someone simply because they strip. That says more about you than it does about strippers.

i thought we was talking about stippers.

Trying to pretend that one who indulges in adult entertainments can have respect for himself when he has no respect for the people who provide his "entertainment" is self delusion. The rest is denial and egotistical BS that no amount of "big words" can conceal.

according to you.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Respect for women? Men in a strip club obey the rules so they can continue ogling the women and avoid getting their heads caved in by the bouncers. Following the rules in that situation has little or nothing to do with respect for the women performing.

For men in a strip joint, it seems to be humble adoration of the female form, almost to the point of some pagan religious ritual.

Now for ladies night, there is absolutely no respect for the male performer, as the women stuff dollar bills in his banana hammock, and spank his bare buttocks.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It's amazing to me, PH, that while speaking self-righteously about demanding respect for women, that you demonstrate such profound disrespect for women who dress modestly to please God. Your hypocrisy is simply far deeper than your lack of self awareness can grasp. Too bad for you.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

It's amazing to me, PH, that while speaking self-righteously about demanding respect for women, that you demonstrate such profound disrespect for women who dress modestly to please God. Your hypocrisy is simply far deeper than your lack of self awareness can grasp. Too bad for you.

It is a very strange, almost bigoted mindset, that that tries to establish a "correct" perspective from which to view the world. If we are going to celebrate diversity, then we need to celebrate all the different perspectives that generate that diversity. It shouldn't be surprising, that the more "progressive" members of society try to establish some sort of universal scale upon which to measure the Universe, without recognizing Divinity, since the Progressive movement began as an overtly racist and secular movement.

[Peikko 1,575]

It's amazing to me, PH, that while speaking self-righteously about demanding respect for women, that you demonstrate such profound disrespect for women who dress modestly to please God. Your hypocrisy is simply far deeper than your lack of self awareness can grasp. Too bad for you.

Nothing self righteous about it. Please your god by dressing any way you choose but do not tell me that a particular style of dress is more modest than another style of dress, that right there is the be all and end all. It is a very simple, and not complicated at all.

It is a very strange, almost bigoted mindset, that that tries to establish a "correct" perspective from which to view the world. If we are going to celebrate diversity, then we need to celebrate all the different perspectives that generate that diversity. It shouldn't be surprising, that the more "progressive" members of society try to establish some sort of universal scale upon which to measure the Universe, without recognizing Divinity, since the Progressive movement began as an overtly racist and secular movement.

I do not represent any movement and the notion of universal rights and respect is not a western construct - any more than assigning women a particular gender role is an eastern one.