Adverts to promote positive view of Muslims

[Sofiyya 1,687]

My words have been extremely explicit in their intent and the 'offense' that I take is to the notion that clothing, in particular clothing that covers and hides the female form is symbolic of chastity, modesty, sexual propriety because there is no getting around the notion that if you believe the former then you necessarily believe that those who do not dress in this way are the opposite, promiscuous, provocative, loose. That is an absurd symbolism. If you wish to please god, there are much better ways to do so and with your body - the best way is to keep it healthy.

Since you have been chastising and making negative comments re women who cover for modesty and to please God, any rebuttal to your stance sounds judgmental to you. However, you are the one judging from your western feminist perspective, which denies that there is any difference between men and women, either biologically or physiologically. It's futile for you to try to dictate your position to others who are not western feminists. It rarely makes a positive impact.

[Peikko 1,575]

Since you have been chastising and making negative comments re women who cover for modesty and to please God, any rebuttal to your stance sounds judgmental to you. However, you are the one judging from your western feminist perspective, which denies that there is any difference between men and women, either biologically or physiologically. It's futile for you to try to dictate your position to others who are not western feminists. It rarely makes a positive impact.

Western Feminist? Well, that's one way of looking at women as more than the sum of their biological parts. That's the point though, I am completely aware of the fact that men and women are biologically different, but that does not mean I can't and should not demand that men respect women regardless of how they dress and the women should value more about themselves and their bodies than simply that which denotes their sex.

As to chastising, rot. I have clearly stated that a genuine wish to please god is non of my concern and something that people can and should do that if they so choose but you want me to believe that the expression of 'modesty' through a choice of clothing is somehow exempt from any expectation of societal norms as they currently stand - well, that's ridiculous.

[IndigoSkies 168]

Western Feminist? Well, that's one way of looking at women as more than the sum of their biological parts. That's the point though, I am completely aware of the fact that men and women are biologically different, but that does not mean I can't and should not demand that men respect women regardless of how they dress and the women should value more about themselves and their bodies than simply that which denotes their sex.

As to chastising, rot. I have clearly stated that a genuine wish to please god is non of my concern and something that people can and should do that if they so choose but you want me to believe that the expression of 'modesty' through a choice of clothing is somehow exempt from any expectation of societal norms as they currently stand - well, that's ridiculous.

Said you and your understanding of social norm.

[Peikko 1,575]

By the by, as I understand it (and if the translation of his words is accurate) at least one notable imam has made statements to the effect that women's choice of clothing has so much effect that god is showing his displeasure by way of natural disasters. Is that an accurate portrayal? If so, should such statements be rebutted by more moderate imams to show that moderate muslims do not feel that women are the sole arbiter of sexual propriety and such expressions are ignorant and demeaning to normal muslim women? Perhaps such statements have been made? Care to comment? Or would you prefer to bluster on about my supposed indignation that women should want to please god?

[Ban Hammer 13,624]

that does not mean I can't and should not demand that men respect women regardless of how they dress

i'd so love to see how that plays out in a strip joint

[Peikko 1,575]

Said you and your understanding of social norm.

Yes, that is my understanding, that in most societies, historically and currently women have been portrayed as loose and promiscuous or chaste and wholesome based entirely on their attire, hence how men have been able to put up the defense of 'she was asking for it' based on the state of dress of women in sexual abuse cases and indeed how muslim women have no defense at all if they are out in the streets and are abused, let alone out in the streets and not wearing certain types of clothing.

[Peikko 1,575]

i'd so love to see how that plays out in a strip joint

Surely even you can see that:

1) Stripping is not based simply on the woman being scantily clad. They have to act in a certain way that is provocative and openly acknowledged by all parties as sexual.

2) There are very strict rules at strip clubs, even the act of stripping, with all that provocation and acknowledgment of sexuality is not an open invitation for men to abuse the woman. She still has complete control of who she does and does not have intimate sexual acts with.

[Ban Hammer 13,624]

Surely even you can see that:

1) Stripping is not based simply on the woman being scantily clad. They have to act in a certain way that is provocative and openly acknowledged by all parties as sexual.

2) There are very strict rules at strip clubs, even the act of stripping, with all that provocation and acknowledgment of sexuality is not an open invitation for men to abuse the woman. She still has complete control of who she does and does not have intimate sexual acts with.

that's all well and wonderful, but please hold the abuse red herring and add extra onions please.

your statement earlier was "that does not mean I can't and should not demand that men respect women regardless of how they dress"

my take on that is i'd love to see you enforce that in a strip joint.

[Peikko 1,575]

In many ways, a strip club is a perfect example of how men can and should be expected to behave properly no matter what the visual stimulation. They know the rules of strip clubs and they abide by them - the same should be true in greater society - men should know that just because a woman is in a bikini, it does not mean she is not chaste, modest and even monogomous and indeed a lot of men are capable of making these distinctions and in societies that this is true, women have this freedom because of a relaxation and rebuttal of the whole being covered is a symbol of chastity rubbish purveyed by insidious belief systems.

[Peikko 1,575]

that's all well and wonderful, but please hold the abuse red herring and add extra onions please.

your statement earlier was "that does not mean I can't and should not demand that men respect women regardless of how they dress"

my take on that is i'd love to see you enforce that in a strip joint.

It is enforced. Women are respected by men who frequent strip clubs - if they were not, the men would not follow the strict rules. If a man chooses to believe that a woman who strips is necessarily promiscuous, I think that says how far people have to go along the road of equality.

Even if a woman is promiscuous, does that mean she should be disrespected? You have your choice as to whether you personally find chastity or promiscuity an attractive quality but that does not mean you respect a promiscuous woman any less, unless you do feel that you can and should do whatever you want with her because she is 'asking for it'. Is that your position?

[Ban Hammer 13,624]

In many ways, a strip club is a perfect example of how men can and should be expected to behave properly no matter what the visual stimulation. They know the rules of strip clubs and they abide by them - the same should be true in greater society - men should know that just because a woman is in a bikini, it does not mean she is not chaste, modest and even monogomous and indeed a lot of men are capable of making these distinctions and in societies that this is true, women have this freedom because of a relaxation and rebuttal of the whole being covered is a symbol of chastity rubbish purveyed by insidious belief systems.

we're not talking about behaving properly - it was about "respect"

[Peikko 1,575]

we're not talking about behaving properly - it was about "respect"

Right, and in this context respect means behaving with civility towards a woman regardless of what job she does, even if her job is a stripper. What type of respect would you not give to a stripper? You seem to want to define it, so go ahead, define it in such a way as it is meaningful to the person you hold no respect for, presumably in this case strippers, right?

[Ban Hammer 13,624]

Right, and in this context respect means behaving with civility towards a woman regardless of what job she does, even if her job is a stripper. What type of respect would you not give to a stripper? You seem to want to define it, so go ahead, define it in such a way as it is meaningful to the person you hold no respect for, presumably in this case strippers, right?

one could just as easily say they are respecting the established rule of the establishment, not the stripper, by their behaving well.

[Tanya and Barry 59]

Right, and in this context respect means behaving with civility towards a woman regardless of what job she does, even if her job is a stripper. What type of respect would you not give to a stripper? You seem to want to define it, so go ahead, define it in such a way as it is meaningful to the person you hold no respect for, presumably in this case strippers, right?

Respect for women? Men in a strip club obey the rules so they can continue ogling the women and avoid getting their heads caved in by the bouncers. Following the rules in that situation has little or nothing to do with respect for the women performing.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I have no doubt that the Hijab was originally developed with the idea of female repression. However, these days it seems that many women honestly wear such items because they want to be modestly dressed and they do so of their own accord.

I think modern feminism is about wearing what the woman actually wants to wear be it a full robe or a bikini without regard to the perceptions of men.

Obviously if a husband is demanding that a woman wear something then that's another issue.

Iran might be a good example of the Hijab being used in a repressive manner because woman simply have no choice. Obviously many women there would NOT wear it if they weren't forced too...just think of the 70's there. But when women truly have freedom of choice I see no issue with it. (With the exception of face covering)

Edited June 9, 2010 by Sousuke