Save Israel

[chri'stina 190]

Not that I care what the bible does and doesn't say, but really, it definitely does not say that, or anything like it. What a bizarre thing to iterate from someone allegedly so learned.

I agree. I felt saying it myself would appear very biased, but that is not the theme I get from the NT.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

she should have to? one would hope that anyone attempting to discuss the topic here would at least have some background knowledge. what she's talking about is pretty rudimentary in re. to this conflict.

but for those who need it spelled out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

i realize that a good number of posters in this thread don't recognize arabs as even being human beings to begin with, but even in that case, the bombing of the king david hotel, which killed several british nurses and secretaries is of note.

The reason I asked for her to elaborate is because if you take that comment at face value it could easily be applied elsewhere.

From certain points of view, for instance, you could claim the United States was founded on terrorist acts and is shaped by colonialism.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I agree. I felt saying it myself would appear very biased, but that is not the theme I get from the NT.

my take isn't the PC version, for sure, but I haven't read the equivocation versionof the NT. today, An honest Christian will admit that only those saved by the blood of the Lamb will enter heaven. Jews are not Christ saved, and the NT makes it clear that that is the key to salvation. Even those Christians who actively support Israel admit that Jews must convert to be saved.

[Peikko 1,575]

my take isn't the PC version, for sure, but I haven't read the equivocation versionof the NT. today, An honest Christian will admit that only those saved by the blood of the Lamb will enter heaven. Jews are not Christ saved, and the NT makes it clear that that is the key to salvation. Even those Christians who actively support Israel admit that Jews must convert to be saved.

Well, that's the simplistic version of what Christ came to earth to do - but of course, you're an expert in the Quran, not the bible, so simplistic is what we are going to get.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;

he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

And this is[a] my covenant with them

when I take away their sins."

Romans 11:26,27

[Peikko 1,575]

The reason I asked for her to elaborate is because if you take that comment at face value it could easily be applied elsewhere.

From certain points of view, for instance, you could claim the United States was founded on terrorist acts and is shaped by colonialism.

Good luck with that - now the introduction of jews as the notion of NT evil has been introduced, that's where the focus will drive. Nonsense, the lot of it and yes, if one looks at the motivations of all those who have 'created' empires and nations, none of it is pretty or pc

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The reason I asked for her to elaborate is because if you take that comment at face value it could easily be applied elsewhere.

From certain points of view, for instance, you could claim the United States was founded on terrorist acts and is shaped by colonialism.

what I mean is that terrorism - blowing people and places up, blockades, sabotage, murder - were done by Jews, Arabs and Europeans in the struggle over land. It was the killing of 99 Brits in a bombing in the King David hotel by a Jewish terrorist group that brought the Europeans to the bargaining table. H

There is blood on all hands, and terrorism is what they all have in common.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

The reason I asked for her to elaborate is because if you take that comment at face value it could easily be applied elsewhere.

From certain points of view, for instance, you could claim the United States was founded on terrorist acts and is shaped by colonialism.

You mean it's not true? You mean the founding fathers were not a bunch of malcontents that did not want to pay for the costs of sending an army to defend the colonists against the French and Indians, or that they wanted establish their own trade alliances, without the concerns of the Crown, or Parliament taken into consideration?

[Peikko 1,575]

You mean it's not true? You mean the founding fathers were not a bunch of malcontents that did not want to pay for the costs of sending an army to defend the colonists against the French and Indians, or that they wanted establish their own trade alliances, without the concerns of the Crown, or Parliament taken into consideration?

You know full well that aims may be laudable, while the means to achieve them not so much - one should also consider indigenous populations as of equal value to immigrating populations and wiping them out because you can isn't really something one should be proud of. Just being on the side of the winners doesn't make you right.

Although, historically, that's the story that's often portrayed

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You folks are good hearted people, but you have to admit that the OT cheerleads the Jews and the NT cheerleads the Savior, who, desipte being a Jew, is represented as being the way to salvation. The same way you wouldn't consider a Muslim to be saved, you have to accept that Jews aren't saved either. That may be simplistic, in keeping with this entire discussion, but it's also true.

[Peikko 1,575]

It's not even clear in the NT if there is such a thing as hell, let alone whether anyone who does not embrace christ will be condemned to an eternal sojourn there.

[Peikko 1,575]

From my point of view, the whole thing is full of contradictions and that's not even taking into account the different possible translations of words that can change the meaning drastically dependent on what 'version' is chosen. Relying on such ancient scriptures for meaningful interpretations as to what may and may not happen to whole ethnic groups is just absurd.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

To be honest, Apologetics has been taught at all the seminaries as portraying the Jews as the bad guys. Lucky for me, I took the course from a former rabbi at the local community college. His masters thesis was the teaching of religion in public schools, and at first, he taught the course much as it was taught at Berkley for the seminarians. After a couple of years, he acknowledged the bias in the course, and made some adjustments to the syllabus for his "History of Western Religious Thought"

[Kazura 0]

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

What I find interesting is the Quran seems to indicate that Jews and Christians might be saved. Its a little vague on exactly how but if they believe in Allah and do rightous deeds on Judgement Day they will saved.

So I've tried to put myself, as a Christian, into the perspective of that teaching. I obviously believe that Allah is God, ie. Christians and Muslims both believe in the same God. But since I hold onto the belief that God is the triune God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit would Islam preclude that I really don't believe in Allah?