At least 10 activists dead, dozens hurt in flotilla clashes

[Nikita2Charles 32]

YOu would think a people that went through so much in the past would be compassionate about others, it's only shows people forget quickly the past when they

are the one whose holding the power.

Instead of dragging this non sense fight with the palestian, it's an uneven fight, rocks verses Thanks, sorry to say there's no more David vs Goliath

Israel should just Nuke the place, Drop a bomb there and kill all the palestinian and get it over with, instead of dragging and draggging this nonsense.

The only country in the area with Nuclear Weapon

Look at the case of Rachel Corrie, She was standing as human shield agains some houses that were to be destroy in the Gaza territory, What happened?

The Bulldozer Ran over her, what's the difference between this scenario and what happened in Tiamen Square?

Torpedo a US navy ship, hmm i guess that's not consider an act of war.

Using allied citizen passport for cover operation to go after someone, puting those citizen life in Danger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

Are those really the acts of a Friend?

Edited June 1, 2010 by Nikita2Charles

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Since when has Israel done anything small, when it comes to their own security concerns? I mean, sinking a US Navy ship monitoring communications in international waters didn't seem to bother the Israelis in the least during the Six Day War.

Unlike so many in ME, we tend to be able to forgive a bit when something happened 43 years ago. Beyond that, the exact circumstances of this incident are beyond any of our ability to determine if the event was purposeful or accidental. If not accidental, there are some things which might justify what Israel did, but there is reasonable suspicion that Israel did not know the origin of the ship, in their territorial waters, was American at least initially. The USA had told Israel they didn't have a ship within 100 miles of the coast prior to the incident just to toss a little factoid at you as one example.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

YOu would think a people that went through so much in the past would be compassionate about others, it's only shows people forget quickly the past when they

are the one whose holding the power.

Instead of dragging this non sense fight with the palestian, it's an uneven fight, rocks verses Thanks, sorry to say there's no more David vs Goliath

Israel should just Nuke the place, Drop a bomb there and kill all the palestinian and get it over with, instead of dragging and draggging this nonsense.

The only country in the area with Nuclear Weapon

Look at the case of Rachel Corrie, She was standing as human shield agains some houses that were to be destroy in the Gaza territory, What happened?

The Bulldozer Ran over her, what's the difference between this scenario and what happened in Tiamen Square?

Torpedo a US navy ship, hmm i guess that's not consider an act of war.

Using allied citizen passport for cover operation to go after someone, puting those citizen life in Danger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

Are those really the acts of a Friend?

I liken it to child abuse. When you are mistreated as a child, you tend to mistreat your own children. We must break the cycle of abuse.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Unlike so many in ME, we tend to be able to forgive a bit when something happened 43 years ago. Beyond that, the exact circumstances of this incident are beyond any of our ability to determine if the event was purposeful or accidental. If not accidental, there are some things which might justify what Israel did, but there is reasonable suspicion that Israel did not know the origin of the ship, in their territorial waters, was American at least initially. The USA had told Israel they didn't have a ship within 100 miles of the coast prior to the incident just to toss a little factoid at you as one example.

There is a documentary, with footage from aboard the USS Liberty, and surviving members of the crew continue to tell their story. I have a good friend that was aboard the ship when it happened. We play, "Where's Waldo?" every time we watch the video, and no, there was nothing accidental about the affair. We were suppling intercepted communications from the USS Liberty, and photographs from U2 overflights to all sides. The Israelis couldn't move until the surveillance was stopped. The only ones not admitting what happened are official US Government sources.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

There is a documentary, with footage from aboard the USS Liberty, and surviving members of the crew continue to tell their story. I have a good friend that was aboard the ship when it happened. We play, "Where's Waldo?" every time we watch the video, and no, there was nothing accidental about the affair. We were suppling intercepted communications from the USS Liberty, and photographs from U2 overflights to all sides. The Israelis couldn't move until the surveillance was stopped. The only ones not admitting what happened are official US Government sources.

Obviously there are two sides to the story, and yes it is also true we were providing communications information to both sides in an effort to disrupt the conflict. Sometimes even sailors on board the ship aren't given all the information though, so the allegation that the official word was that the USA had no ships in the area still stands as another mitigating factor in an admittedly messed up incident.

[mawilson 2,133]

Yes we know where you stand. You must either be firmly and fanatically on one side or the other, and never the twain shall meet.

Damn right. They may have pulled the wool over your eyes, but I ain't buying the "religion of peace" ruse.

[SMR 368]

Why?

Why does Israel blockade naval shipments of aid supplies to Gaza (and confiscate things like building materials), when everyone knows that Hamas gets its weapons from underground tunnels - and continues to do so no matter what Israel has tried to do to stop them.

Your argument is logically inconsistent. Either the blockade is doing something and the Palestinians thus have something to gain by fighting it, or the blockade is not doing anything and there is no point in fighting it.

Yes, Hamas gets its weapons through underground tunnels. Because they can't get them by sea because of the blockade. That doesn't mean they couldn't get more and better weapons if the blockade were lifted. Your argument is sort of like saying that since drugs continue to enter the country in spite of controls at the border and drugs aren't being moved through airport security we should simply stop checking bags.

The Israelis allow in food and medicine. Building materials, no matter how benign they may seem, would simply be used by Hamas for weapons and other such activities. They wouldn't be used to better the lives of the average people in Gaza. These "activists" continue to bring things that they know are banned because they want to make a stir. They are waging a campaign against Israel. They know all too well that if they just starting bringing reasonable things like food and medicine that wouldn't be stopped they would fall of the edge of the earth of media coverage and their campaign against Israel would be a failure.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Look at the case of Rachel Corrie, She was standing as human shield agains some houses that were to be destroy in the Gaza territory, What happened?

The Bulldozer Ran over her, what's the difference between this scenario and what happened in Tiamen Square?

At least Israel apologized for killing her. I believe at least 14 Americans have been murdered by Hamas since 2000. When do they get their apologies?

Edited June 2, 2010 by Sousuke

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Damn right. They may have pulled the wool over your eyes, but I ain't buying the "religion of peace" ruse.

Mark - either you are another bigot who actually believes that the majority of muslims support or endorse terrorism or you are just someone who says things like this for effect.

I wonder which is the truth...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Your argument is logically inconsistent. Either the blockade is doing something and the Palestinians thus have something to gain by fighting it, or the blockade is not doing anything and there is no point in fighting it.

Yes, Hamas gets its weapons through underground tunnels. Because they can't get them by sea because of the blockade. That doesn't mean they couldn't get more and better weapons if the blockade were lifted. Your argument is sort of like saying that since drugs continue to enter the country in spite of controls at the border and drugs aren't being moved through airport security we should simply stop checking bags.

The Israelis allow in food and medicine. Building materials, no matter how benign they may seem, would simply be used by Hamas for weapons and other such activities. They wouldn't be used to better the lives of the average people in Gaza. These "activists" continue to bring things that they know are banned because they want to make a stir. They are waging a campaign against Israel. They know all too well that if they just starting bringing reasonable things like food and medicine that wouldn't be stopped they would fall of the edge of the earth of media coverage and their campaign against Israel would be a failure.

Israel has destroyed the infrastructure of the Palestinian Territories - people there live in the rubble of the last wave of air-strikes and tank attacks. Of course, they shouldn't have the tools and equipment necessary to rebuild homes, roads and basic utilities.

Regardless of what Hamas does - Israel continues to collectively punish the civilian population. Makes you wonder which is the greater evil doesn't it...

[Boiler 45,564]

From the BBC, so hardly a pro Israel source:

The UN Charter on the Law of the Sea says only if a vessel is suspected to be transporting weapons, or weapons of mass destruction, can it be boarded in international waters. Otherwise the permission of the ship's flag carrying nation must be sought.

So they certainly had the right to board. Boarding is currently a common occurrence of the coast of Somalia.

Evidence of what happened

The film I have seen certainly suggests there was a confrontation, the other ships surrendered peacefully, seems that all the bad boys were on this one and looking for trouble.

Motivation

Gaza has two bordering states, Egypt is involved as well. If their prime purpose was to supply aid then the obvious choice would have been to land it at an Egyptian Port.

Conclusion

Judging from the profiles of those involved it was the usual suspects whose main aim was political. Perhaps they got a bit more than they expected, perhaps not.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Boiler

[Dan J 277]

Damn right. They may have pulled the wool over your eyes, but I ain't buying the "religion of peace" ruse.

This has never really been about religion, its about control of land and water.

Religion has been used as a cover by both sides to justify crimes against humanity to their own people and supporters abroad. When you can dehumanize someone, they are much easier to kill, or claim that the kill of is justified.

[KaiserD 12]

Regardless of what Hamas does - Israel continues to collectively punish the civilian population. Makes you wonder which is the greater evil doesn't it...

So are you saying, never mind who Hamas kills, Israel continues to collectively punish the civilian population. So people killed in suicide attacks are not a civilian population?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#Total_number_of_fatalities.2C_by_year

I see the death toll is clearly unbalanced in favour of the Israelis, but if the militants had stronger power on hand would they be using it?

"We're doing this in response to this" and "we're doing this in response to that" isn't helping anyone, which seems to be where most of the violence goes

All you get is this:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/israel.gaza/index.html

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So are you saying, never mind who Hamas kills, Israel continues to collectively punish the civilian population. So people killed in suicide attacks are not a civilian population?

For Gods sake, what kind of sense do you think that makes?

At the end of the day the issue is surely on who is suffering the worst, and by any measure the Palestinians are - and no, that does not mean I support, endorse or justify anyone being killed or otherwise terrorized.

[SMR 368]

Israel has destroyed the infrastructure of the Palestinian Territories - people there live in the rubble of the last wave of air-strikes and tank attacks. Of course, they shouldn't have the tools and equipment necessary to rebuild homes, roads and basic utilities.

Regardless of what Hamas does - Israel continues to collectively punish the civilian population. Makes you wonder which is the greater evil doesn't it...

Regardless of what Israel does, Hamas will continue to abuse, punish, and oppress the Palestinians. If Hamas really wanted to help average Palestinians instead of using them as pawns in a PR war, it would use these fabled tunnels to smuggle in things to help its civilians instead of rockets to continuously and ineffectively poke its finger in Israel's eye. If Hamas began to take such good faith efforts, I think the Israelis would be more open to them importing steel and cement.

Israel has taken various measures throughout the years including stopping settlement buildings and even forcefully withdrawing Israelis from contested areas to attempt to appease Fatah and Hamas. But none of these efforts has ever stopped the rocket attacks or even really slowed them down. Either Hamas itself is incapable of stopping the attacks, in which case there is little point in negotiating with them, or (more likely) Hamas is complicit in the attacks and has no intention of stopping the attacks regardless of what Israel does.

Israel takes all measures to insure the safety of its citizens and has tried various measures to stop the war and the bloodshed. Hamas refuses to take similar steps and places its women and children in harm's way in order to increase the PR shock with pictures of bloodied children. No, I don't wonder which is the greater evil.