At least 10 activists dead, dozens hurt in flotilla clashes

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

The official report says they had pistols and paint ball guns, until there is a full investigation we won't know.

I saw the footage on FNC this morning. It sure looked like they had something a little more lethal than that pointed at the passengers.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I saw the footage on FNC this morning. It sure looked like they had something a little more lethal than that pointed at the passengers.

Might have, the US military can fire paint rounds from M16s and M4 carbines. They do so in exercises all the time. I guess its more realistic that way.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Sousuke

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Might have, the US military can fire paint rounds from M16s and M4 carbines. They do so in exercises all the time. I guess its more realistic that way.

We were a little more sophisticated than that. We all played laser tag.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

While Israel will get the nose bleed from this incident, it appears that those on the ship were looking for a violent confrontation. They got it.

[Pooky 3,792]

While Israel will get the nose bleed from this incident, it appears that those on the ship were looking for a violent confrontation. They got it.

The only thing in question about this entire episode was how many people were going to get hurt and how badly.

The ships were loaded with supplies for Gaza, some guaranteed to be let through, some guaranteed to be stopped, as they were prohibited by the Israeli blockade. This was common knowledge. The weapons angle is a red herring, I hope, because no-one on the organising side of this adventure could have been dumb enough to run guns to Hamas in full view of the world's media. No, the banned construction materials were enough to ensure the Israelis would intercept the convoy at some point. So, it was a given that the Israelis would stop and board the ships.

The activists wanted a daytime confrontation to maximise the media exposure. If the Israelis waited until the ships exited international waters and entered territorial waters, they would be giving the activists just what they wanted. The alternative was to carry out the intercept at night in international waters. Never shy of doing what has to be done on their own terms, the Israelis chose international waters, knowing the fallout that would involve.

Once the intercept was made, the activists readied for a fight. According to reports, the activists on the ships initiated the violence, attacking the boarders "with knives, bats and metal pipes. The soldiers used non-lethal measures to disperse the crowd. The activists, according to an IDF report, succeeded in stealing two handguns from soldiers and opened fire, leading to an escalation in violence."(quoted from OP)

It's at this point that I lose all sympathy for the people on board the convoy ships. Comparing the Israelis to common pirates is complete junk. Everyone knows they were there to inspect the cargo and enforce their very public blockade of Gaza. And, unless you really don't understand what sort of operation this was, you should appreciate that it was not in Israeli interests for there to be any violence whatsoever. If they had intended violence, why not sink the ships of the convoy and be done with it? Why risk boarding and putting your own men in harm's way?

In getting their hands on presumably Israeli guns, the activists ensured there would be bloodshed and instigated it. As soon as the first shots were fired, the Israelis are likely to have assumed that there were more firearms on the other side and gone into self-protection mode, a very military reaction. In taking violent action against the boarding Israeli forces, the activists raised the tension of the situation. In firing first, they ensured that people died when they didn't have to.

They also made sure that the media impact of the situation was muddied beyond belief. Sure, Israel is feeling the heat of international opinion right now, but the activists are coming off as far from innocent in the whole thing. The whole adventure is now being viewed as trying to provoke Israeli action, more than delivering supplies to Gaza. The "volunteers" on board the convoy ships are being seen as violent, anti-Israeli activists, rather than humanitarian volunteers. And the whole scenario is being viewed as an attempt to trap the Israelis that went horribly, tragically wrong.

But imagine if the people on the ships had stood by peacefully and allowed the Israelis to inspect and seize the ships. No-one dies, the same supplies get through to Gaza, the same supplies get stopped and Israel is the only bad guy. A cleaner media win, a clear loser and no dead bodies.

So, who wins in the fallout from this mess? Turkey gets to distance itself from Israel, after being its closest Islamic ally. Only problem there is that the Turkish armed forces use a lot of Israeli-supplied technology, so that distance could be deceptive. The Israeli PM was due to meet President Obama June 1^st, to discuss the Middle East peace process, so that's out the window. This eases pressure on the Palestinians and Hamas to make concessions, and makes Israel the bad guy again for a while. What are we left with? Same old inertia. Instead of possible progress, we're left with nothing changed, apart from some international noise for a while. Another sabotaged opportunity.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Pooky

[SMR 368]

They had them when they repelled onto the boat. I saw that footage, or is the Israeli Defense Force Information Desk not supplying that footage on their youtube site?

You need to do some research before you look like an idiot. The Israeli soldiers were armed with non-lethal rifles such as paintball guns.

[SMR 368]

the ship was in international waters at the time. the soldiers boarding that ship had no more right to be there than common pirates.

This is really a pointless distinction. Everyone knew where the ships were headed. Whether or not they had crossed the 20 mile mark is simply a question of semantics. Granted, it's legal semantics and does mean something in terms of international law. But using this to classify the IDF as pirates is silly. Had the ships committed to stay in international waters, I'm sure the IDF would be more than happy to leave them alone.

[Heracles 417]

Well I've seen the video. Whatever you think of the blockade, the soldiers were definitely being attacked and acted in self defense unless the tape is fake.

http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk

Which tends to happen when you board the ship of others.

[SuperDuper! 230]

Which tends to happen when you board the ship of others.

We sure the Australian Navy would NEVER let a tense situation like this get out of hand.

[Heracles 417]

We sure the Australian Navy would NEVER let a tense situation like this get out of hand.

Australia already asked the Israeli consulate to leave over the forged passports saga. This incident just adds fuel to those that are against Israel, which I hate to say is growing daily.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Booyah!

[SuperDuper! 230]

Australia already asked the Israeli consulate to leave over the forged passports saga. This incident just adds fuel to those that are against Israel, which I hate to say is growing daily.

Agreed. This flotilla incident will have major backlash growing this week.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

There is not much that can be done about the blockade. And remember its not a unilateral action.

[mawilson 2,133]

Cut off all ties to Israel, stop sending US taxpayers' money over there, and the dream of peace in the Middle East is within reach. If you remove the thorn from the wound, the wound eventually will heal.

And while we're at it, send Just Bob to Guantanamo Bay.

[Yahya54 4]

I just want peace for Palestine and Israel. But with these constant conflicts arising, neither side is innocent. In this case, Israel is the instigator! Just as Hitler did to the Jews, the Jews are doing to the Palestinians; very sad! Protests are said to take place in front of the Israeli Embassy in San Francisco

[mawilson 2,133]

The only thing in question about this entire episode was how many people were going to get hurt and how badly.

The ships were loaded with supplies for Gaza, some guaranteed to be let through, some guaranteed to be stopped, as they were prohibited by the Israeli blockade. This was common knowledge. The weapons angle is a red herring, I hope, because no-one on the organising side of this adventure could have been dumb enough to run guns to Hamas in full view of the world's media. No, the banned construction materials were enough to ensure the Israelis would intercept the convoy at some point. So, it was a given that the Israelis would stop and board the ships.

The activists wanted a daytime confrontation to maximise the media exposure. If the Israelis waited until the ships exited international waters and entered territorial waters, they would be giving the activists just what they wanted. The alternative was to carry out the intercept at night in international waters. Never shy of doing what has to be done on their own terms, the Israelis chose international waters, knowing the fallout that would involve.

Once the intercept was made, the activists readied for a fight. According to reports, the activists on the ships initiated the violence, attacking the boarders "with knives, bats and metal pipes. The soldiers used non-lethal measures to disperse the crowd. The activists, according to an IDF report, succeeded in stealing two handguns from soldiers and opened fire, leading to an escalation in violence."(quoted from OP)

It's at this point that I lose all sympathy for the people on board the convoy ships. Comparing the Israelis to common pirates is complete junk. Everyone knows they were there to inspect the cargo and enforce their very public blockade of Gaza. And, unless you really don't understand what sort of operation this was, you should appreciate that it was not in Israeli interests for there to be any violence whatsoever. If they had intended violence, why not sink the ships of the convoy and be done with it? Why risk boarding and putting your own men in harm's way?

In getting their hands on presumably Israeli guns, the activists ensured there would be bloodshed and instigated it. As soon as the first shots were fired, the Israelis are likely to have assumed that there were more firearms on the other side and gone into self-protection mode, a very military reaction. In taking violent action against the boarding Israeli forces, the activists raised the tension of the situation. In firing first, they ensured that people died when they didn't have to.

They also made sure that the media impact of the situation was muddied beyond belief. Sure, Israel is feeling the heat of international opinion right now, but the activists are coming off as far from innocent in the whole thing. The whole adventure is now being viewed as trying to provoke Israeli action, more than delivering supplies to Gaza. The "volunteers" on board the convoy ships are being seen as violent, anti-Israeli activists, rather than humanitarian volunteers. And the whole scenario is being viewed as an attempt to trap the Israelis that went horribly, tragically wrong.

But imagine if the people on the ships had stood by peacefully and allowed the Israelis to inspect and seize the ships. No-one dies, the same supplies get through to Gaza, the same supplies get stopped and Israel is the only bad guy. A cleaner media win, a clear loser and no dead bodies.

So, who wins in the fallout from this mess? Turkey gets to distance itself from Israel, after being its closest Islamic ally. Only problem there is that the Turkish armed forces use a lot of Israeli-supplied technology, so that distance could be deceptive. The Israeli PM was due to meet President Obama June 1^st, to discuss the Middle East peace process, so that's out the window. This eases pressure on the Palestinians and Hamas to make concessions, and makes Israel the bad guy again for a while. What are we left with? Same old inertia. Instead of possible progress, we're left with nothing changed, apart from some international noise for a while. Another sabotaged opportunity.

Very good post.