At least 10 activists dead, dozens hurt in flotilla clashes

[SMR 368]

For Gods sake, what kind of sense do you think that makes?

At the end of the day the issue is surely on who is suffering the worst, and by any measure the Palestinians are - and no, that does not mean I support, endorse or justify anyone being killed or otherwise terrorized.

Actually, what he said makes a lot of sense. No one disputes that the Palestinians are suffering more. But you improperly identified the issue. The real issue is not who is suffering more but rather who is causing that suffering. The point about suicide bombers is that Hamas is killing its own people. Yes, the Palestinians are suffering. And Hamas doesn't care; Hamas encourages the suffering to make Israel look bad.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

No doubt, but Israel must accept its portion of responsibility and not refer to anyone who criticises them as some sort of anti semite.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Regardless of what Israel does, Hamas will continue to abuse, punish, and oppress the Palestinians. If Hamas really wanted to help average Palestinians instead of using them as pawns in a PR war, it would use these fabled tunnels to smuggle in things to help its civilians instead of rockets to continuously and ineffectively poke its finger in Israel's eye. If Hamas began to take such good faith efforts, I think the Israelis would be more open to them importing steel and cement.

Israel has taken various measures throughout the years including stopping settlement buildings and even forcefully withdrawing Israelis from contested areas to attempt to appease Fatah and Hamas. But none of these efforts has ever stopped the rocket attacks or even really slowed them down. Either Hamas itself is incapable of stopping the attacks, in which case there is little point in negotiating with them, or (more likely) Hamas is complicit in the attacks and has no intention of stopping the attacks regardless of what Israel does.

Israel takes all measures to insure the safety of its citizens and has tried various measures to stop the war and the bloodshed. Hamas refuses to take similar steps and places its women and children in harm's way in order to increase the PR shock with pictures of bloodied children. No, I don't wonder which is the greater evil.

I actually think this incident is a great opportunity for Israel if they take it. Your 100% right that this conflict has become PR war. If I were Israel, I would open up to a UN investigation and use it as a lead in to handing the Gaza strip to UN management.

First, I don't think Israel will come out all that badly in the investigation. At worst it would get minor condemnation. But with UN troops handling Gaza, Israel would be able to free up resources to better control land based smuggling in Israeli territory.

Second, If UN troops failed to minimize the violence the blame no longer falls on Israel and in fact they would have a greater voice in situation along the lines of "Why isn't the UN doing its job".

Third, I have no doubt that you would see an increase in foreign causalities at the hands of Hamas. That would surely begin to sway public opinion more in Israel's favor.

In conclusion, Israel's old strategy was to create buffer zones to protect the population. Now, Israel should allow foreign troops into these zones and allow them to manage the situation. That's obviously what the UN wants and it gives Israel the opportunity to extract itself from direct conflict and ultimately bad PR. Assuming the UN fairs no better then the IDF, Israel will gain an additional reason to complain about UN failures.

I think this strategy is important given the blockade will likely fail sooner or later.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Israel rarely accepts the findings of "independent inquiries". They usually publish their own.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Israel rarely accepts the findings of "independent inquiries". They usually publish their own.

The findings would be irrelevant if it is used as an opportunity to get UN troops in Gaza.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Very much doubt that Israel will cede control to the UN.

[Boiler 45,580]

I actually think this incident is a great opportunity for Israel if they take it. Your 100% right that this conflict has become PR war. If I were Israel, I would open up to a UN investigation and use it as a lead in to handing the Gaza strip to UN management.

First, I don't think Israel will come out all that badly in the investigation. At worst it would get minor condemnation. But with UN troops handling Gaza, Israel would be able to free up resources to better control land based smuggling in Israeli territory.

Second, If UN troops failed to minimize the violence the blame no longer falls on Israel and in fact they would have a greater voice in situation along the lines of "Why isn't the UN doing its job".

Third, I have no doubt that you would see an increase in foreign causalities at the hands of Hamas. That would surely begin to sway public opinion more in Israel's favor.

In conclusion, Israel's old strategy was to create buffer zones to protect the population. Now, Israel should allow foreign troops into these zones and allow them to manage the situation. That's obviously what the UN wants and it gives Israel the opportunity to extract itself from direct conflict and ultimately bad PR. Assuming the UN fairs no better then the IDF, Israel will gain an additional reason to complain about UN failures.

I think this strategy is important given the blockade will likely fail sooner or later.

I like it.

It is all PR, I can not see any country agreeable willing to supply troops anyway.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

No doubt, but Israel must accept its portion of responsibility and not refer to anyone who criticises them as some sort of anti semite.

Main Entry: Sem·ite

Pronunciation: \ˈse-ˌmīt, especially British ˈsē-ˌmīt\

Function: noun

Etymology: French sémite, from Sem Shem, from Late Latin, from Greek Sēm, from Hebrew Shēm

Date: 1848

1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples

2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semite

One of the more misused terms.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I actually think this incident is a great opportunity for Israel if they take it. Your 100% right that this conflict has become PR war. If I were Israel, I would open up to a UN investigation and use it as a lead in to handing (sp) the Gaza strip to UN management.

First, I don't think Israel will come out all that badly in the investigation. At worst it would get minor condemnation. But with UN troops handling Gaza, Israel would be able to free up resources to better control land based smuggling in Israeli territory.

Second, If UN troops failed to minimize the violence the blame no longer falls on Israel and in fact they would have a greater voice in situation along the lines of "Why isn't the UN doing its job".

Third, I have no doubt that you would see an increase in foreign causalities at the hands of Hamas. That would surely begin to sway public opinion more in Israel's favor.

In conclusion, Israel's old strategy was to create buffer zones to protect the population. Now, Israel should allow foreign troops into these zones and allow them to manage the situation. That's obviously what the UN wants and it gives Israel the opportunity to extract itself from direct conflict and ultimately bad PR. Assuming the UN fairs no better then the IDF, Israel will gain an additional reason to complain about UN failures.

I think this strategy is important given the blockade will likely fail sooner or later.

Not going to happen. The Israelis use the Palestinians as a cheap, ready source of labor, that they can abuse at will, such as locking them up in factories at night, allowing them to leave only on the weekend.

Edited June 2, 2010 by ##########

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Not going to happen. The Israelis use the Palestinians as a cheap, ready source of labor, that they can abuse at will, such as locking them up in factories at night, allowing them to leave only on the weekend.

Uh can you back this up? So they take Palestinians from Gaza and lock them in factories to work?

[mawilson 2,133]

Uh can you back this up? So they take Palestinians from Gaza and lock them in factories to work?

He can't because it's not true.

[Boiler 45,580]

I know Arabs do that to Philippine domestic servants. Plenty of stories from the Gulf States.

Perhaps that is why the confusion?

[Boiler 45,580]

I know Arabs do that to Philippine domestic servants. Plenty of stories from the Gulf States.

Perhaps that is why the confusion?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Uh can you back this up? So they take Palestinians from Gaza and lock them in factories to work?

Some employers are the ones exploiting the cheap labor, like in America. There is no "official" conscription , or "Press Gangs" that I am aware of.

From the anecdotes of friends, and relatives of friends that have traveled to Israel for visits since 1967, the practice of keeping workers overnight is not unheard of. Even when travel was more or less permitted between Gaza, the West Bank, and the rest of Israel, there was always a chance that even the permitted workers would not be allowed to return, or be detained by security forces.

Tens of thousands of Palestinians desperate for a source of livelihood with which to support themselves and their dependents take the risk and enter Israel without a permit. Every Week, thousands of these workers are caught by Israeli security forces. Alongside the official procedure for handling them, in which most are returned to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and some are tried and sentenced to imprisonment or fined, the security forces have developed various informal patterns of operation - which entail abuse and humiliation - for handling Palestinians they catch. In many instances, Palestinians fall victim to violent assaults and severe maltreatment by police officers and soldiers. Although the Israeli authorities officially condemn such abusive conduct, in the overwhelming majority of cases they fail to prosecute those responsible for them, and both in their acts and omissions enable the phenomenon to exist and continue.

In addition, Israeli employers often exploit the hardship of Palestinian workers, especially workers who do not have permits to enter and stay in Israel , and pay them low wages and provide them with dismal conditions, while denying them their statutory rights.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Workers/Index.asp

[Boiler 45,580]

You would think they would rather head for Jordan or Egypt and avoid the hassle..