Ukraine - USA School Equivalency

[Martyshk 137]

The incredible, astounding, just totally in-your-face thing is that YOU moved here when YOU were in school (or so you say) and could have contributed your OWN first hand experience in response to the OPs question without ever reading what Gary said, and instead CHOSE to nit-pick Gary on an irrelevent item. TWICE. Oh well, that is what makes it the RUB forum, eh?

I moved here when I was 17. I have already graduated in Ukraine. My first-hand experience is meaningless. Yes, I went to High School here as well. 12th grade. Mostly to just polish my English.

As far as Casper's question is concerned - I gave my answer. 9th grade is the most viable option for the kid. He'll graduate at 18 here (or around that) which will put him on par with every other graduate in U.S., so he's not going to be behind. There's also a chance that he'll skip a grade or two once his English gets better (which will be in a matter of months). So all in all, everyone, you included, suggested for the kid to start in grade 9.

As far as your lenghty response.... yeah... too long, didn't read. But in essence - you do like to presume certain things based on a single experience. Which is fine. But don't be all uppity if people point out that it's wrong. Out of 93 people graduating with me there was only 2 (me included) who were 16. Back then schools weren't too keen on accepting a 6 year old in a first grade unless his/her birthday fell within the next couple of months of admission (i.e. Oct-Nov).

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I moved here when I was 17. I have already graduated in Ukraine. My first-hand experience is meaningless. Yes, I went to High School here as well. 12th grade. Mostly to just polish my English.

As far as Casper's question is concerned - I gave my answer. 9th grade is the most viable option for the kid. He'll graduate at 18 here (or around that) which will put him on par with every other graduate in U.S., so he's not going to be behind. There's also a chance that he'll skip a grade or two once his English gets better (which will be in a matter of months). So all in all, everyone, you included, suggested for the kid to start in grade 9.

As far as your lenghty response.... yeah... too long, didn't read. But in essence - you do like to presume certain things based on a single experience. Which is fine. But don't be all uppity if people point out that it's wrong. Out of 93 people graduating with me there was only 2 (me included) who were 16. Back then schools weren't too keen on accepting a 6 year old in a first grade unless his/her birthday fell within the next couple of months of admission (i.e. Oct-Nov).

I'll accept your apology, I assumed you had some experience to pass on (my bad) and now I see you did your best to contribute a criticism me instead. Here is a (relatively) short post for you, perhaps you should READ what someone writes if you plan to criticize it. My responses are based on my experience (I know, shocking) and I presume that adult readers can ascertain such and gather information from many other members and make a conclusion for themselves. It is typically not necessary to explicitly state that such is a personal experience when it is written over a personal signature. Read an editorial page in the newspaper some time....they do not say it is a "personal" opinion, you are supposed to KNOW that.

I regret assuming you had some experience to contribute.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Gary and Alla

[slim 1,525]

In 1-2 years I doubt you will be able to tell he wasn't born here. I hope Diana never stops rolling her "r's" though, I like it!

You're probably right about that. "Kids" will pick up the local flair and roll with it pretty quickly. It's likely that in a few years he'll have no accent at all and a few years later will start to forget some of the old tongue. (It'll always be there but without regular practice it will start to fade away.)

Your wife, on the other hand, will likely have a thick accent forever. While it's possible to erase the accent completely, that's only done with a lot of practice and usually involves some speech coaching or lessons. Typically, when learning English as a Second Language abroad, folks are taught by a native speaker who is also speaking ESL and hence, they have an accent. Whle the mind can rapidly acquire vocabulary and phrases, it's a completely different set of controls that works the tongue. Folks try to speak the target word in their head instead of saying it like it's said in the target language.

Think of it this way. When you first look at the word "zdrastvuite" and try to sound it out, spell it out, say it aloud, you're "seeing" it in your head and saying it how an English speaker would pronounce a word spelled in Russian. Adults do this. Kids, on the other hand, don't "see" the word spelled out (or they do, just not so much in the same way) they simply repeat the word they've heard from their peers or on TV or wherever. "zdrasvuieeeee."

It's a simple wiring difference of how the adult mind has been hardwired in a particular language and will process all communication in that language where a child will not because their wires aren't hardened just yet!

[Martyshk 137]

Your wife, on the other hand, will likely have a thick accent forever. While it's possible to erase the accent completely, that's only done with a lot of practice and usually involves some speech coaching or lessons. Typically, when learning English as a Second Language abroad, folks are taught by a native speaker who is also speaking ESL and hence, they have an accent. Whle the mind can rapidly acquire vocabulary and phrases, it's a completely different set of controls that works the tongue. Folks try to speak the target word in their head instead of saying it like it's said in the target language.

That is completely and utterly true. I am glad that Daria doesn't know how to speak, pretty much. She's learning English here, so her accent is not going to be a standard thick Russian "ze veazer iz gut toodej" type of accent.

Casper is on the right track with setting up ESL classes for his bride here already.

[slim 1,525]

ESL was HUGE business in Korea while I was there. (Still is, as far as I know.) I saw many job postings that said something like, "English speakers wanted to teach English classes. Korean language not required." and for the life of me, I couldn't understand how someone who couldn't speak Korean could teach Koreans how to speak English.

Then I met a Korean woman who ran an English school and she broke it down for me. "We speak Engrisheee with accent. We don't want our students to speak with this accent so we need native English speakers to teach them. Our classes are taught by Koreans - sometimes in Korean languageeee - but when we speak and do our drills and practice, the native English speaker is the one who talks and corrects our students."

While l didn't realize it at the time, I was learning Korean language using this approach. While I was learning from my American coworkers who knew words, I wasn't learning to speak from them, I was learning to speak from my Korean coworkers and friends who spoke Korean as their native language. So, once I finally took some formal classes, my teacher was somewhat surprised because, unlike the rest of the class, I had no accent.

[Martyshk 137]

That is definitely the best approach.

One thing about ESL classes Daria mentions after every time is that she can barely understand other people in the class, but understands what the teacher says perfectly.

So yeah, it's still so much better to learn from a native speaker. I think Daria will not have many problems with her accent. At least when she tells me the words and sentences that they learned in class, she pronounces them exactly as the teacher does so it comes out quite good.

[payxibka 10,045]

There is something to be said for that at younger ages Pay, but at 14 he will be in in 9th or 10th or 11th grade...

My son is 14... my opinion still stands

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

ESL was HUGE business in Korea while I was there. (Still is, as far as I know.) I saw many job postings that said something like, "English speakers wanted to teach English classes. Korean language not required." and for the life of me, I couldn't understand how someone who couldn't speak Korean could teach Koreans how to speak English.

Then I met a Korean woman who ran an English school and she broke it down for me. "We speak Engrisheee with accent. We don't want our students to speak with this accent so we need native English speakers to teach them. Our classes are taught by Koreans - sometimes in Korean languageeee - but when we speak and do our drills and practice, the native English speaker is the one who talks and corrects our students."

While l didn't realize it at the time, I was learning Korean language using this approach. While I was learning from my American coworkers who knew words, I wasn't learning to speak from them, I was learning to speak from my Korean coworkers and friends who spoke Korean as their native language. So, once I finally took some formal classes, my teacher was somewhat surprised because, unlike the rest of the class, I had no accent.

It is still huge business. Worldwide

Alla is in a Master's course to teach ESL and the class ahead of her just graduated. Each and every student is already employed as ESL teachers and most had several job offers. Both in the US and foreign countries. Foreign countries as a rule pay higher salaries, living expenses and some provide housing for a 1-2 year commitment. There is pretty good money in translations and interpretation also, especially in foreign countries. The interpretors I worked with in Ukraine, and they were not UN quality, they were construction site quality, were getting up to $100 per day, minimum $60 per day PLUS most were given a car or at least access to a car. That's "tall cotton" in Ukraine for relatively easy work. Alla was making more than $1500 per month plus expenses as an interpretor/representative for EU business people

The US, Japan and a few other countries (not sure about Korea) strongly prefer "native English speakers" for ESL teachers. Other countries will accept foreign students trained in the US or even trained in foreign countries.

She just joined an organization for ESL teachers that has a convention every year and people from all over the world come there and offer job interviews for prospective ESL teachers. If a person likes to travel and experience other cultures it is a great job for that.

The difference in accents, so I am told, is the way in which they learn the language. If they learn from a native speaker, they will have less accent. Pasha has very lttle accent and Sergey has somehwat more than Pasha but much less than Alla. Sergey's and Pasha's instructor in Ukraine was from Arizona.

One of the greatest advantages we offer our new children is the ability to receive a really good education in English. Most of the Ukrainian students that come here are doing so to study English, not math or science.

One thing I would suggest, is that after his Englsh is fairly well established, that he continue his Russian langauge education. If he were still in Ukraine his Russian instruction would continue long past age 14. (or Ukrainian langauge education now...but maybe it will change back to Russian ) Anyway, he should still improve that also. Why not?

[Casper&Diana 0]

Thanks all! I agree that age appropriate is the best idea for Denys and at 14 1/2 years, he should be in 9th grade and starting high school. I told Diana this morning of your consensus to which she said, 'fine, we can discuss it more when we get to Oregon.' Which I take to mean it is not fine but maybe!

That is an interesting discussion about how ESL classes work. I never thought about it before. We are lucky to have a junior college in our town that offers ESL classes all year and at the beginner, intermediate, and advanced levels. Diana was VERY happy to hear that. She can't wait to get here, take classes this summer, speak the language as well as possible, and get out in the working world asap. Hm, might have to start a new thread...

I think that is a valid point about continuing to learn Russian and/or Ukrainian here too. Sheesh, I want to learn Russian. I will have a whole passel of new in-laws back in the 'old country' that I won't be able to talk to without an interpreter unless I learn Russian.

As for Denys, I think he will be like we all were when we started high school, scared spitless the first week and after that it's no big deal. Though my youngest daughter is a senior now and graduating she has already charged her younger girlfriends to 'take care of Denys' in the fall, to which they readily agreed. Oh god, here we go.

[visaveteran 1]

So much speculation on here about what grade to start in, when the decision will be made by the school through testing and the kid's English skills and social maturity...just like the thousands of other non English speaking kids pouring into the public schools. Your kid(s) will likely overhear as much Spanish as English when they start ESL classes depending on what state you live in.

If your kids are as smart and exceptional as Gary's, they may even pick-up English AND Spanish in a few months. While everyone paints a rosy picture of foreign kids coming here and excelling in American schools, my ex wife, who is a public school counselor, tells a different story. She sees many foreign born students struggle, especially with English, poor social skills, inappropriate behavior, classroom disruption, and either too strict or too lenient parenting.

Frankly, I would never send any kid, American or foreign, to public school. My son never set foot inside a public school which is why he is so well adjusted and a happy and successful post-graduate student. I always hated school. He loves it.

[payxibka 10,045]

She sees many foreign born students struggle, especially with English, poor social skills, inappropriate behavior, classroom disruption, and either too strict or too lenient parenting.

Your wife must be the counselor at my son's school....

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Thanks all! I agree that age appropriate is the best idea for Denys and at 14 1/2 years, he should be in 9th grade and starting high school. I told Diana this morning of your consensus to which she said, 'fine, we can discuss it more when we get to Oregon.' Which I take to mean it is not fine but maybe!

That is an interesting discussion about how ESL classes work. I never thought about it before. We are lucky to have a junior college in our town that offers ESL classes all year and at the beginner, intermediate, and advanced levels. Diana was VERY happy to hear that. She can't wait to get here, take classes this summer, speak the language as well as possible, and get out in the working world asap. Hm, might have to start a new thread...

I think that is a valid point about continuing to learn Russian and/or Ukrainian here too. Sheesh, I want to learn Russian. I will have a whole passel of new in-laws back in the 'old country' that I won't be able to talk to without an interpreter unless I learn Russian.

As for Denys, I think he will be like we all were when we started high school, scared spitless the first week and after that it's no big deal. Though my youngest daughter is a senior now and graduating she has already charged her younger girlfriends to 'take care of Denys' in the fall, to which they readily agreed. Oh god, here we go.

OMG if he is anything like Pasha he will need lots of "taking care of"

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Thanks all! I agree that age appropriate is the best idea for Denys and at 14 1/2 years, he should be in 9th grade and starting high school. I told Diana this morning of your consensus to which she said, 'fine, we can discuss it more when we get to Oregon.' Which I take to mean it is not fine but maybe!

That is an interesting discussion about how ESL classes work. I never thought about it before. We are lucky to have a junior college in our town that offers ESL classes all year and at the beginner, intermediate, and advanced levels. Diana was VERY happy to hear that. She can't wait to get here, take classes this summer, speak the language as well as possible, and get out in the working world asap. Hm, might have to start a new thread...

I think that is a valid point about continuing to learn Russian and/or Ukrainian here too. Sheesh, I want to learn Russian. I will have a whole passel of new in-laws back in the 'old country' that I won't be able to talk to without an interpreter unless I learn Russian.

As for Denys, I think he will be like we all were when we started high school, scared spitless the first week and after that it's no big deal. Though my youngest daughter is a senior now and graduating she has already charged her younger girlfriends to 'take care of Denys' in the fall, to which they readily agreed. Oh god, here we go.

You need the in-laws to keep you straight. I do not speak a lot of Russian, but Alla's friends say I "have no accent". Her mom says "You have an American accent, I can tell you are American immediately"

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

So much speculation on here about what grade to start in, when the decision will be made by the school through testing and the kid's English skills and social maturity...just like the thousands of other non English speaking kids pouring into the public schools. Your kid(s) will likely overhear as much Spanish as English when they start ESL classes depending on what state you live in.

If your kids are as smart and exceptional as Gary's, they may even pick-up English AND Spanish in a few months. While everyone paints a rosy picture of foreign kids coming here and excelling in American schools, my ex wife, who is a public school counselor, tells a different story. She sees many foreign born students struggle, especially with English, poor social skills, inappropriate behavior, classroom disruption, and either too strict or too lenient parenting.

Frankly, I would never send any kid, American or foreign, to public school. My son never set foot inside a public school which is why he is so well adjusted and a happy and successful post-graduate student. I always hated school. He loves it.

I don't doubt there are problems and yes, the boys are exceptional in many ways. (And yes, one is learning Spanish and the other speaks German also ) What I have been told is that yes, there are often problems but the problems are not necessarily related to being in the USA. In other words, those kids may have poor social skills, emotional problems etc. whether they are here or somewhere else. I haven't done thorough study of the topic. There also seem to be patterns related to nationalities, etc. The contribution of the parents is a big factor, no doubt. It was not and is not easy to be a parent to be sure.

Pasha was in a small ESl class, 5 students total. Pasha says all were doing well, I do not know how he assesses this other than interaction and observance.

As I said, I think if a kid did not have social problems, behavioral problems etc., before, there is no particular reason he would have them now, given support of his family. Sounds like Denys has that. I just don't imagine a well adjusted and "normal" kid from Ukraine coming here and suddenly having problems

Even Sergey, who spends only a couple months here each summer, went to Alla's college, met up some of the other students and within a week or two was seeing friends, going to gatherings etc. He is a geek (nothing wrong with geeks) so I hesitate to call them "parties" More like sessions of probability calculations.

[slim 1,525]

I want to learn Russian. I will have a whole passel of new in-laws back in the 'old country' that I won't be able to talk to without an interpreter unless I learn Russian.

I recommend Pimsleur. I've sampled all the various courses and I believe Pimsleur to be the best.

That being said, it's extremely difficult for an adult person to just "learn" a new language to the point of being able to hold a conversation with in-laws. You'll probably learn words and phrases from your wife/son, things from general pleasantries (and curse words) to specific things like what you call the little slippers you're going to be required to wear in your house (happens to all of us) all the way up to saying something like "I don't know why you so stupid husband."

Learning those words and little bit of phrases is a far cry from holding your own when sitting on the couch across from MIL. However, even a small amount will go a long way so it's worth giving it a shot.

I've also noticed that it significantly ups your value as an American husband. When her Russian friends are hanging out and their American husbands have no clue what the hell the girls are talking about and you bust in with a funny quip or hand them the right item when they're asking for it, you immediately go from that loser of a green card sponsor to "what a great husband" - whether your wife chooses to acknowledge it or not!

she has already charged her younger girlfriends to 'take care of Denys' in the fall, to which they readily agreed. Oh god, here we go.

Otlichna! (aht-leech-na... let the Russian lessons begin!)

I would never send any kid, American or foreign, to public school. My son never set foot inside a public school which is why he is so well adjusted and a happy and successful post-graduate student.

I've always been bewildered by this belief. Parents who pay thousands of dollars to get their kid an education they could get for free. Why?

Edited May 28, 2010 by slim