I-864: How important?

[Advanced Aardvark 82]

The public charge determination is at the discretion of the consulate when issuing a visa, and USCIS when adjudicating an adjustment of status application. Strictly speaking, 212(a)(4) doesn't absolutely require USCIS to get an affidavit of support from a sponsor. However, if they do require it, then section 213A spells out the requirements for the affidavit itself.

In other words, the adjudicator actually has it within his discretion to grant the AOS without the affidavit. He's not bound by law to require it. However, if he does actually grant the AOS without an affidavit then it certainly isn't because you decided to put your foot down and refuse to submit it, but because he felt there was virtually zero chance your wife would ever become a public charge. Your letter stating that you shouldn't be required to support your wife after divorce, using federal guidelines and potentially for life, is not going to instill them with much confidence. Your basically saying you don't think it's fair for you to assume this risk, so you want the taxpayers of the US to assume it instead.

This has nothing to do with spousal support. If you married and divorced a US citizen, the family court might order you to pay spousal support for a fixed period of time, generally long enough for your ex-wife to get on her feet and reenter the workforce. If she still couldn't support herself after that then she'd no longer be your problem, but she could get assistance from the government if she qualified, at the expense of the taxpayers. This is precisely what the affidavit of support is meant to prevent. The law protects the taxpayers from being stuck with the check in the event a US citizen gets involved in a bad relationship with a foreigner. The same rules apply to anyone sponsoring an immigrant, including family members and employers.

I'm mildly curious to see how this turns out, but I'm pretty certain they're going to require you to sign an I-864 or they'll refuse to issue the green card.

Good luck!

Nicely stated!

The short version: The rules are designed to protect the US Government, and taxpayers, from the consequences of romantic folly. If you can not, or will not, provide guaranty of financial support, then you really can not afford to take on this level of responsibility.

Ditto about the good luck!

[Nicole-N-Nattoy 24]

Wait I didn't know about this... Are u telling me that I am required to take care of my husband

no matter what even if we divorce? What exactly am I agreeing to if I sign that paper.

What if me and my husband divorce in under 2 years? What if we divorce in five years.

What if he cheats on me and I have to divorce him. Will I still have to let him have all my

money or pay him alimony? If this is really the case I may rethink this whole thing.

I hope were together forever, but in this day and age som many things can go wrong.

[Kittyfang 6]

Wait I didn't know about this... Are u telling me that I am required to take care of my husband

no matter what even if we divorce? What exactly am I agreeing to if I sign that paper.

What if me and my husband divorce in under 2 years? What if we divorce in five years.

What if he cheats on me and I have to divorce him. Will I still have to let him have all my

money or pay him alimony? If this is really the case I may rethink this whole thing.

I hope were together forever, but in this day and age som many things can go wrong.

It does state on the form what your responsibilities are. The Instruction section isn't just there to look purty.

[Miss smarty pants 84]

Wait I didn't know about this... Are u telling me that I am required to take care of my husband

no matter what even if we divorce? Possibly, yes

What exactly am I agreeing to if I sign that paper.To keep him from becoming a public charge

What if me and my husband divorce in under 2 years? Still holds up. For 40 quarters of work or until citenzenship or death

What if we divorce in five years. See last commment

What if he cheats on me and I have to divorce him. Doesn't matter the reason

Will I still have to let him have all my

money or pay him alimony? Possibly.. to keep him from becoming a public charge

If this is really the case I may rethink this whole thing. That is something to think about.

I hope were together forever, but in this day and age som many things can go wrong.

Ultimately you will be responsible for assuring that he doesn't need to use means tested benefits while he is here. I have heard of people sueing to enforce it. It's not something to sign lightly. But if you are really sure of your relationship, then it shouldn't be a deal breaker either.

[Nicole-N-Nattoy 24]

I knew that was #######....U are only obligated to supprt them until they become a us citizen. Which only takes two years of marriage.

[Nicole-N-Nattoy 24]

Thank u for the reply. I was worried for a second there.

[lyekka 5]

Thank u for the reply. I was worried for a second there.

Why wold you even have a worry about this? I really dont get why this would be an issue when you're suppose to be happily married for life. Why marry anyone if you suspect that you might divorce them? Im glad the I864 is in place, I think it should be required due to some of the responses that have been given in this topic. I dont take marriage lightly, and it really irks me when people do. You go through this whole process then freak out when you find out you might be stuck supporting your spouse!? Really? I love my husband so much that one I will never divorce him, and two I would work two jobs 7 days a week to make sure he is ok. Ill never have to do that because he loves me as much as I do him. Anyways, this response you have given has struck a cord in me as to why the us government has all these provisions in place. Its people that think like this or have in the past that has brought the government to set these guidelines.

The way I look at it, responses and people thinking along these lines in the past and present are why people like me and my husband have to suffer through all the long waits and hardship of having to prove a legitimate relationship.

Edited May 26, 2010 by lyekka

[trillium13 84]

I knew that was #######....U are only obligated to supprt them until they become a us citizen. Which only takes two years of marriage.

Actually, it's 3 years.

Whether or not you have to financially support your husband if you should divorce is not a USCIS matter. It is a matter for family courts. Once you are married, what is his is yours and vice versa. Same goes for any debts either of you take on. The US government only if your husband becomes a public charge.

These are things you should know anyway and consider before marriage. The issue of spousal support has nothing to do with immigration. "Regular" people who are going through divorce deal with this all the time.

[cjgator 2]

You know, it's funny. I have been a member of this site for going on 2 years. This is without question the most valuable site on the web with regards to immigration matters and a forum for others to discuss their developmnents and shared concerns with others who are walking similar paths. I owe a lot of mine and my wife's progress to the help of many of this website's members - and to all those individuals, I can never say thanks enough. You are great human beings.

What never ceases to amaze me, however, are the excessive number of narrow-minded haters that fail to ever consider an alternative perspective other than the one they have lived, and are the first to throw stones at anyone who views their situation in a different way that what they have lived. There is an old saying in life, ladies and gentlemen: Don't judge a person unless/until you have walked a mile in their shoes. This forum was solely created to provide information and offer an opinion, based on personal experience, to those who may be thinking about similar matters. It was not intended to get anyone who has a different perspective or experience to change the way they think about their situation(s). For those of you who have so ripped what I have said, what is your answer to the trusting and loving US Citizens who got surprisingly hammered by their international spouses when their conditions changed? Do you not think that happens? If you do, then obviously you know very little about this overall process, nor have you read that countless postings of those who desparately searched for input when they felt their lives had been turned upside down by their internation spouse's "change of heart". For the record, my actions were not initiated solely on my own perspective. They were pursued after consultation with an experienced immigration attorney who has seen hundreds of relationships dissolve and turn sour when the status of the immigrant changed, to the unprepared surprise of the U.S. sponsor. While I respect all opinons, I tell all of the critics and haters of my perspective to line up and tell all of the loving and supportive U.S. sponsors of the opportunitistic immigrant spouses that they got what they deserved. If you can do that, well, it says a lot about the kind of person you are. But, of course, this forum allows for quite a bit of "drive-by" commentary, from those who would never have the stones to do such a thing as I have proposed.

For those of you who offered genunine and legitimate criticism or counterpoints to this topic, without judgment, this is not directed at you, and your feedback makes for a great forum.

Be happy, in whatever relationship you are in. But-don't let love make you stupid. There would be no such thing as a "divorce lawyer" if more people followed this creed.

Finally. For those who debated whether the I-864 can and will be enforced in a federal, not state, court setting-let me educate you. No matter what is ruled upon in state court, the person being sponsored had the absolute right (and often does) to fight that document in Federal Court. If you need me to provide you links to the dozens of adjudged Federal cases, I would be happy to.

-C

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

In all fairness CJ, you probably should have known it was coming.

You posted advice that many (most?) here would consider dangerous. At best, your letter will be politely ignored by USCIS, and they'll respond with an RFE for a signed affidavit of support. At worst, they'll consider your letter to be a refusal to supply the requested documentation, and they'll deny the AOS petition. This is my opinion, but I'm sure it's shared by most people here.

Being a member of this forum for as long as you have been, you must have known that your advice would not go unchallenged. In fact, most here feel compelled to correct advice they believe is wrong or potentially dangerous. Yes, people do make sweeping statements (including myself) that X or Y is not possible, when in fact it is possible but just highly unlikely or fraught with unnecessary risk.

The neophytes who visit this forum, and who are capable of little more than following a checklist, might see your advice and believe that they too can do the same thing. This is why people are so adamant to jump when they see what they consider to be bad advice. You don't know yet whether your approach will work, so it's premature to announce it. Who knows - maybe they'll grant the AOS and commend you for standing up for yourself. If they do, then there will be plenty of crow to go around, and all of us "haters" will get a heaping helping.

I don't think people are saying that relationships don't fall apart, or that well meaning US citizens don't get duped by foreigners. There are enough cases on this site alone to write enough soap opera episodes for a half dozen seasons of daytime TV. What they're saying is that marrying a foreigner is definitely a plunge into the deep end of the pool. The level of commitment required is above and beyond what is required for a casual relationship with the girl next door. The US government absolutely requires it to be this way because they're giving your significant other a pass to the front of the immigration line, at the risk you may be helping yet another deadbeat gain legal status in the US. They expect you to share that risk.

I know of a number of cases where the affidavit has not been used successfully by an immigrant to get support payments. I also know of a few where it has been used successfully. If you've got links to any relevant case law I'd love to read about it. I love to cite actual cases when I make statements on this site.

[Starburst 4]

You know, it's funny. I have been a member of this site for going on 2 years. This is without question the most valuable site on the web with regards to immigration matters and a forum for others to discuss their developmnents and shared concerns with others who are walking similar paths. I owe a lot of mine and my wife's progress to the help of many of this website's members - and to all those individuals, I can never say thanks enough. You are great human beings.

What never ceases to amaze me, however, are the excessive number of narrow-minded haters that fail to ever consider an alternative perspective other than the one they have lived, and are the first to throw stones at anyone who views their situation in a different way that what they have lived. There is an old saying in life, ladies and gentlemen: Don't judge a person unless/until you have walked a mile in their shoes. This forum was solely created to provide information and offer an opinion, based on personal experience, to those who may be thinking about similar matters. It was not intended to get anyone who has a different perspective or experience to change the way they think about their situation(s). For those of you who have so ripped what I have said, what is your answer to the trusting and loving US Citizens who got surprisingly hammered by their international spouses when their conditions changed? Do you not think that happens? If you do, then obviously you know very little about this overall process, nor have you read that countless postings of those who desparately searched for input when they felt their lives had been turned upside down by their internation spouse's "change of heart". For the record, my actions were not initiated solely on my own perspective. They were pursued after consultation with an experienced immigration attorney who has seen hundreds of relationships dissolve and turn sour when the status of the immigrant changed, to the unprepared surprise of the U.S. sponsor. While I respect all opinons, I tell all of the critics and haters of my perspective to line up and tell all of the loving and supportive U.S. sponsors of the opportunitistic immigrant spouses that they got what they deserved. If you can do that, well, it says a lot about the kind of person you are. But, of course, this forum allows for quite a bit of "drive-by" commentary, from those who would never have the stones to do such a thing as I have proposed.

For those of you who offered genunine and legitimate criticism or counterpoints to this topic, without judgment, this is not directed at you, and your feedback makes for a great forum.

Be happy, in whatever relationship you are in. But-don't let love make you stupid. There would be no such thing as a "divorce lawyer" if more people followed this creed.

Finally. For those who debated whether the I-864 can and will be enforced in a federal, not state, court setting-let me educate you. No matter what is ruled upon in state court, the person being sponsored had the absolute right (and often does) to fight that document in Federal Court. If you need me to provide you links to the dozens of adjudged Federal cases, I would be happy to.

-C

You're right. And it's my opinion and from my experience, that they will not approve your application because you do not meet the requirements as set forth by the US govt. and I have the, as you stated "stones" to do what I please; I just choose to follow the rules. I can't believe you would risk being with the person you say you love, because you keep thinking about divorce.

If some how you get it approved, and later divorced, remind me to send you a monthly bill for what my tax dollars are paying to support the person, you really should be suppporting yourself.

/starburst

[belinda63 3,039]

It is a matter of responsibility. You are taking a person out of their home country, native language, and culture. What is to say you won't decide that you don't like them for whatever reason and file for divorce. Now we have a person in our country who is pretty much helpless that was brought here by you and they have no way to take care of themselves. We are not responsible for the situation, the person who petitioned for them is but he/she doesn't want to take any responsibility if they decide they don't like their new spouse?

Also the opposite, as states previously is true, with the new spouse simply wanting a green card and maybe disappearing after arriving. The question is why should the US taxpayers be responsible for them.

So if I get scammed by the Nigerian inheritance scam the US taxpayers should have to reimburse me for what I lost? If I pay to receive my "winnings" in the UK lottery and it is a scam the US taxpayers should reimburse me?

All that is being asked by the affidavit is that you accept responsibility for the person you are petitioning for that they do not become a burden upon the US taxpayers if, for whatever reason, they become a "public charge". You want to gamble with bringing them here but want the US taxpayers to possibly pay if it doesn't work out. NOT.

Spousal support is a completely different issue. Maybe some uneducated family courts (I have not researched this at all) have used the I-864 as a basis for awarding spousal support but I really don't see it happening. A more likely train of thought by the judge would be along what I said in the first paragraph. An award of spousal support is a very rare thing these days and I don't see a judge doing it for more than a few months, if at all, to allow the foreign spouse to get on their feet.

Point blank the I-864 is designed to protect the US taxpayers from the gamble you are taking.

[belinda63 3,039]

Having briefly researched the issue yes maybe they could get spousal support to some degree from you. So have your spouse sign a legal document agreeing she will not pursue nor accept spousal support under the I-864 terms. This still will not relieve you from the possibility of being sued by the government if she becomes a public charge but it will relieve you of the responsibility of having to support her directly.

Interested to see what will happen at the interview but I do believe she will not receive her green card until you execute an I-864 since it is required by law.

[ScottThuy 140]

I knew that was #######....U are only obligated to supprt them until they become a us citizen. Which only takes two years of marriage.

-1

Edited May 27, 2010 by ScottThuy

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Having briefly researched the issue yes maybe they could get spousal support to some degree from you. So have your spouse sign a legal document agreeing she will not pursue nor accept spousal support under the I-864 terms. This still will not relieve you from the possibility of being sued by the government if she becomes a public charge but it will relieve you of the responsibility of having to support her directly.

Interested to see what will happen at the interview but I do believe she will not receive her green card until you execute an I-864 since it is required by law.

This sounds good in theory, but it probably won't work in most states.

I think in your previous post you were referring to alimony rather than spousal support. Alimony is an outdated concept that comes from a time when a divorced woman had no expectation of ever being able to enter the workforce and earn a living wage, and her ex-husband was expected to support her for the rest of her life or until she remarried. This is simply not realistic anymore. Alimony has largely been replaced by spousal support, which is based on an attempt to maintain the marital standard of living until the ex-spouse can re-enter the workforce and support themselves. The spousal support laws in most states are gender neutral - whichever party earns the most is the one that pays spousal support, but this often ends up being the male. The amount paid is determined by the difference in income between the two, and most states have a formula for determining the amount. The length of time the payments are made is determined by the length of the marriage. In short duration marriages, spousal support is usually not awarded at all.

Few immigrants have been successful in using the affidavit of support as a basis for getting an award of spousal support in a family court. This is because the family code in many states explicitly states how a judge is to determine spousal support, and there are no provisions for the judge to consider ex-parte contracts. Many people who have tried to get the affidavit enforced in a family court have been told to take their case to a civil or federal court, since the family court doesn't have jurisdiction to rule on the affidavit.

For the same reason as above, prenuptial agreements usually cannot override the state's family code when awarding spousal support. In every state I'm aware of, a prenuptial agreement cannot be used to waive the rights of either spouse under state law. They are more often used to clarify matters of potential contention so that they don't become a problem if a divorce should occur. For example, if one spouse owned a rare automobile and they wanted to make sure that the automobile could not be taken away to offset other assets in a property settlement, they include a clause in the prenuptial agreement that the car will remain their sole property no matter what happens in the property settlement.