TV Commercial To Air In The UK On Where To Get An Abortion.

[Peikko 1,575]

That's what abortion is isn't it?

If you want an answer in a vacuum yes, but you know reality is not like that. It's not like a woman who has an abortion suffers no consequences from that decision. None of this is clean and clear cut. I know you understand that this is a very complex subject and I am sure you appreciate that the reality of the decision making on how to proceed with an unplanned pregnancy is not an equality of circumstance.

[_Simpson_ 250]

Yes, "own up" you said. Owning up "yes I did this" is just words. Consequences are what matter. A man goes "oops" and a woman has to deal with the repercussions while people are trying to limit her options in how to deal with that responsibility while having her reputation slandered.

To act like it ends at "oops" is just misleading. A lot of dads pay child suppport and chose to be in the childs life. I think the fathers that disappear are just as in the wrong as the mothers who have a abortion, extreme cases aside.

That it's a technicality is just your opinion. Being in ER vomiting blood as part of pregnancy was not a mere "technicality" for me, it just shows you have sweet ignorance as to what pregnancy and birth is like. Must be great to undermine peoples experiences!

I have all along said extreme cases aside. If the mothers life is in danger she should be able to have a abortion. Most pro lifers take that stand. Have you had a abortion, no! So your undermine the experiences of woman who have had a abortion and have regretted the decision. Its not easy to live with the fact you aborted your baby and will never know just how hard it is until you do. My ex-wife still gets choked up until this day when she thinks about her abortion, my mother too. You know the woman in Roe vs Wade is a pro lifer?

Yes you want your mere opinion in circumstances nothing to do with you to have more worth/weight than my opinion from my actions and my life. As if your value as a human being is worth more than mine, like I'm not capable of making decent decisions. I am, doesn't matter if you don't think so.

Once again you havent had a abortion.

When is abortion a decent decision(extreme cases aside)? Charles Mansion thought his decision was decent, Im not comparing the two but just making a point.

Because the baby-in-making doesn't suffer the most - it is in the process of developing its systems so that it will get to a point where it feels pain, has awareness, all of its organs working together as it begins its journey to a self sustaining being.

Where abortion should be legal and shouldnt is something I am willing to work with but I wasnt using suffering in that sense. I mean the baby get the most precious thing taken away from it, life.

Abortion being selfish, again that's your opinion. Everyone's circumstances differ but I have to decide how such a thing would affect multiple people in my life not just me.

Considering you have the adoption choice, it is a very very very selfish thing to do.

I haven't thrown away any human being, that child in that signature is mine from a planned pregnancy. However his journey here for me was hell and if I accidentally got pregnant again I would become so ill (but unlikely to be life threatening) that his quality of life will be severely impaired. Many people with hyperemesis gravidarum go on to have abortions whether they have previous children or not because they simply can't take it, I was really surprised at the number. The HER Foundation had a survey there, but they've replaced it with another HG topic and I can't find the old one, which is unfortunate.

I was referring to abortion in general, this was not personal, I know nothing about you.

Once again most pro lifers would support abortion for woman who are in danger of losing there life.

I'm a sensible person, I take precautions and not the kind of person that I would not sleep with anyone if I wasn't in a solid relationship, that's part of my parcel. But I need to know that the option of abortion is there if I need it, even if I don't take it. But regardless of how one might end up in the situation of an unplanned pregnancy, the stigma, assumptions and judgments are always the same.

Yes and I wish more people were like you and took sex seriously. As far as the stigma goes I dont see why the baby has to pay the price so you wont be embarrassed.

[_Simpson_ 250]

You seem to be assuming that the adoption and social care systems work in an efficient manner. When the big issue of the day is cutting back public spending in the teeth of a recession (one of the first casualties of which is the education sytem). In any case, aren't you forever sneering and pouring scorn on the failure of big government programs?

Pike I said there was not perfect system, this does not excuse people to make bad decisions.

I believe in small government not in no government, big difference.

It has nothing to do with the OP.

Well then why did you ask? I was only replying to you.

You are suggesting that the abortion rate will increase because of a late night television commercial shown in the UK. There is no reasonable chain of logic to support that conclusion, beyond your personal belief that must be the case.

Like I said, do you want to make a wager?

Pointing out that there are serious economic and practical considerations to giving birth to and raising a child isn't speculation, it is fact. Indeed, it is (or should be) a prime consideration for anyone planning to have a family.

Of course some children will have tougher lifes but to act like thats a reason for them no to live is just downright stupid. I really cant believe your trying to make that argument. If the mom can not take care of the child she should be encouraged to give it up for adoption not kill it. That really is some a5s backwards thinking you got going on there.

People who cannot afford to raise a child shouldn't have them. It is why there are sensationalist headlines in the news about irresponsible people who have 17 kids all of which are paid for exclusively by the welfare system. It's not good for the taxpayer or for the children brought up in those circumstances.

I agree they shouldn't raise them, they should give them for adoption.

Your pointing to extremes to try and make a case, shame on you.

It's not good for the taxpayer or for the children brought up in those circumstances.

Ill take one for the team! But death is good for the child? Once again your trying to tell me that poor peoples life are not as valuable. That is some sad selfish thinking.

Its been fun but I Got to go.

Edited May 25, 2010 by _Simpson_

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Pike I said there was not perfect system, this does not excuse people to make bad decisions.

I believe in small government not in no government, big difference.

There is something to be said for making the best of a bad decision (assuming of course these pregnancies are not accidental, which they often are), but ultimately the rights of the parents and the woman in particular trump that of an unborn child. You might not like it, but the alternative to allowing women to have control over their own biological processes is something akin to slavery.

Like I said, do you want to make a wager?

I don't expect you'll see the nuttiness in trying to make a bet about something like that, but exactly how are you going to prove a rise in the abortion rate is directly attributable to a TV advertisement? Good luck with that. Seriously...

Of course some children will have tougher lifes but to act like thats a reason for them no to live is just downright stupid. I really cant believe your trying to make that argument. If the mom can not take care of the child she should be encouraged to give it up for adoption not kill it. That really is some a5s backwards thinking you got going on there.

Why is it stupid? Is there or is there not a problem with overpopulation? Is there or is there not a widening gap between the very rich and the very poor? Wouldn't you rather live in a country where everyone enjoys a reasonable standard of living, rather than promote something that only adds to social deprivation, poverty and human misery?

Yes they should raise them, they should give them for adoption.

Your pointing to extremes to try and make a case, shame on you.

Some people can't afford to have even one child without being heavily dependent on social welfare to subsidize the cost. You may not want to admit it, but it is a fact.

Ill take one for the team! But death is good for the child? Once again your trying to tell me that poor peoples life are not as valuable. That is some sad selfish thinking.

You seem hell-bent on wanting to interpret it that way.

The practical realities of living in a society mean people have to make difficult choices. I don't pretend to think for one minute that abortion is easy, convenient or even the best solution. It is however, a necessary option.

It is not responsible for people to have children that they cannot afford, and a responsible person should not have them if they aren't in a suitably secure emotional or financial position to raise them adequately. Many people do not make informed decisions for their own well-being - and hence we have generational welfare abuse and a generational underclass of people repeating the same mistakes that their parents made.

[KaiserD 12]

To act like it ends at "oops" is just misleading. A lot of dads pay child suppport and chose to be in the childs life. I think the fathers that disappear are just as in the wrong as the mothers who have a abortion, extreme cases aside.

But you know that isn't really related to abortion as much as accidental pregnancies. The obvious group is the 15 - 25 (25, this is really an uneducated guess about responsibility and maturity), you know what I'm trying to say. They don't think twice about putting what where because there are few consequences for them.

People are all too happy to apply consequences for a position they will never have to be in, no matter what kind of ethical (or not) lives they lead.

I have all along said extreme cases aside. If the mothers life is in danger she should be able to have a abortion. Most pro lifers take that stand. Have you had a abortion, no! So your undermine the experiences of woman who have had a abortion and have regretted the decision. Its not easy to live with the fact you aborted your baby and will never know just how hard it is until you do. My ex-wife still gets choked up until this day when she thinks about her abortion, my mother too. You know the woman in Roe vs Wade is a pro lifer?

Ah no no no, I would never undermine the experiences of someone who chose an abortion. I may not be able to physically empathize because I havn't been there but I can easily imagine how such a choice could devastate your entire life, that's why I don't see abortion as a cop out. A "mother" does not escape the consequences, she deals with different ones. I'm sorry for your family members, it's a choice I hope I never have to think about.

But this is the thing, my life wasn't in danger. Nobody batted an eyelid, I waited for hoooours and hoooours because I was not an emergency case "she's just pregnant". From the HG abortion questions there was this: Fear that either she or her baby would die 63 (51.2%). Very very few people actually die from this, mostly because its dehydration related which is remedied by sticking a needle with a bag of fluids. But basically, it's just crushing. You feel like you're dying and miserable as hell - and on the whole nobody cares less because you're pregnant.

I don't know, maybe because pregnancy is such an every day thing with so many people doing it, the process is very overstated. I realize mine is a pretty worse case scenario. I'm pretty sure I would feel this way with a more normal experience, but maybe I can only speculate on this.

Once again you havent had a abortion.

I don't understand in this example how that would make a difference. In my decision to decide what to do with my body from consequences that I chose (we're talking about average circumstances here), nobody else apart from the father should have any kind of influence on the outcome. As far as the father wanting it when the mother didn't goes has already been discussed. I think his feelings on the matter should at least be taken into consideration but ultimately it is the mother's choice.

Where abortion should be legal and shouldnt is something I am willing to work with but I wasnt using suffering in that sense. I mean the baby get the most precious thing taken away from it, life.

Me too. I also think the number available to a woman should be limited, nobody can really argue that there are some people who use abortions as birth control in itself, that ought to be addressed. I remember reading about a woman who had 4 (or so) abortions then when she wanted to get pregnant found she couldn't - don't think there was much sympathy there.

Also, you probably won't feel this way but I weigh up life itself vs quality of life. I feel a lot less disdain for a woman who had an abortion who went on to sort her life out than a drug addict who has given birth to her child who has a very poor quality of life. Did you hear about the woman offering sterilization/birth control to drug addicts for money?

Considering you have the adoption choice, it is a very very very selfish thing to do.

This is hard too, if I had been 16 and this happened it probably would have been my route. There was a very illustrative episode of 16 and Pregnant (I HATE MTV but it's not the pro-irresponsibility show you might think it would be) about a couple who decided to give their daughter up for adoption. It was very moving and done in good taste.

There are so many things that need to be changed about this system in itself, why is there so much money involved? Who is really qualified to adopt? There are many adopters who adamantly say that just because a couple is childless does not mean they should adopt. It would also be nice if more adamantly pro life people (especially politicians, right wing old school christians) would put their families where their mouth is and provide a home for such children. It would provide an honourable example to show others.

I was referring to abortion in general, this was not personal, I know nothing about you.

Heh, it's just what happens when right and left, pro choice and pro life start labeling each other in their camps and it becomes more personal. I'm sure this bores lots of people but when we bring personal stories, it gives more authority to the argument (as well as facts) and to relate to discussion better.

Yes and I wish more people were like you and took sex seriously. As far as the stigma goes I dont see why the baby has to pay the price so you wont be embarrassed.

True that! For the most part everyone seems to have been talking about non teen couples that have accidents but the laissez-faire attitude to sex in the west is not something to be proud of for sure.

Hmm well, the problem is in general as a woman still in these times is it does not take very much effort at all to get landed with a reputation that can sully your life. I mean say there's a protester standing outside a clinic and they're shouting at a pregnant woman going to get an abortion, they're going to likely call her all kinds of names when she might have been raped or whatever. There's going to be careless people that you can't have much sympathy for but people are always so ready to tar others with the same brush.

I just know that in my next life I'm so being a man. I will draw manga, play video games and never have to be thought as weird because I don't spend hours on hair or makeup and my SO can get to be fat and have to get up all hours of the night to pee!