Is Testing And Making Sure People Are Qualified Really Racism?

[Heracles 417]

Well...you can't make the alcoholics want to learn, no

Yeah, that's kind of what I was trying to say at the end. Just because they get the money it doesn't mean it solves the problem. Parents attitude and education counts (and other home/social issues) count for just as much. It's all still relevant, the quality/level of education is overall lesser in black communities and I'm pretty sure this is the cause of disparity here. Again, it's not the Fire Department's responsibility to fix this or make up for it though.

While that is a nice assumption that makes folks feel warm on the inside, it's not reality.

Are we also going to blame the lack of quality educaiton for the uber high homicide and crime rate within the community? Or are these people simply shooting up neighborhoods in drive-bys because they are hungry? How about not being able to pick up trash or paint a house or maw the lawn? perhaps chillin in inner-city street corners helps their plight? How about they putting that iphone many in the ghetto have to use and look for work.. Or save the $4k spent on rims and buy a shirt and slacks.

[Peikko 1,575]

Who are they discriminating against...stupid people? What is your solution considering there was too many qualifying people?

If the black numbers would've been higher we wouldnt be talking about this, good grief we will never have a end to racial tension in this country if people dont stop pissing and moaning about such riducouls things!

It's ridiculous to want to get to the bottom of why for the most part black people are excluded from the interview stage of the application process to become firefighters?

Get rid of all the pointless emotional rhetoric and the pertinent questions are these:

1) Did the test have a built in bias that favoured a particular type of candidate?

2) Did the fact that they chose to interview ONLY those who gained a score of 89 or higher preclude candidates who would have passed the REQUIREMENTS for the job application and who would in fact have made at least as good if not better firefighters?

3) Did the city knowingly ignore the fact that a particular type of candidate seemed to be favoured over other candidates and neglect to ensure there was no discrimination against a particular demographic?

Without knowing the answers to these questions, everything said is pure speculation one way or another. It is interesting that some seem so adamant that they know the truth

Edited May 24, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Heracles 417]

It's ridiculous to want to get to the bottom of why for the most part black people are excluded from the interview stage of the application process to become firefighters?

Without knowing the answers to these questions, everything said is pure speculation one way or another. It is interesting that some seem so adamant that they know the truth

You gotta love Cleo. Had this been the other way around, as have been demonstrated by numerous other cases posted, you'd be saying what's the big deal. Now you want to get to the bottom of this.

[Peikko 1,575]

You gotta love Cleo. Had this been the other way around, as have been demonstrated by numerous other cases posted, you'd be saying what's the big deal. Now you want to get to the bottom of this.

Evidence for the part in bold? Right you don't have any because that's simply stupid.

I don't want to get to the bottom of anything BY, I'm not in the business of adjudicating cases on discrimination. What I have succinctly provided is the pertinent questions that would provide the basis for taking this issue to court.

[Peikko 1,575]

I would have edited to add:

You are providing your own answers to the questions which reflect a certain pov, one which can't see why it would be unlikely for most black people to be unsuitable as firefighters, white people for some reason having a special gift for it that blacks do not. It seems peculiar to me that ANYONE would accept that as fact without trying to find out if there is some other reason for this to have occurred.

[SMOKE 1,426]

It is interesting that some seem so adamant that they know the truth

here is some adamant truth. i want the best & brightest climbing the ladder to pick my azz out of a 10th floor window of a building on fire. not the one that got the job to meet a quota.

[Peikko 1,575]

here is some adamant truth. i want the best & brightest climbing the ladder to pick my azz out of a 10th floor window of a building on fire. not the one that got the job to meet a quota.

Go back to the questions posed. Did the choosing of those who passed with that particular grade in fact produce the best firefighter? There is at least enough evidence to convince one judge that this qualification was arbitary and meaningless in terms of finding the most suitable candidate to the job. Are you in a position to say that's false?

[Peikko 1,575]

I know I don't have enough information to answer the questions, however, I am in a position to suggest that something about the recruitment process doesn't add up. It could be that 90% of black people in that city are incapable of being good firefighters, or it could be that the test isn't a very good indicator of who would or wouldn't make a good firefighter beyond a general level of qualification (meeting a minimum set of criteria) and that only with interview and further aptitude testing is one in a good position to make that judgment. Do you know definitively that black people don't make very good firefighters?

Edited May 24, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[_Simpson_ 250]

but you don't?

I see the truth.

[rsn 135]

I know I don't have enough information to answer the questions, however, I am in a position to suggest that something about the recruitment process doesn't add up. It could be that 90% of black people in that city are incapable of being good firefighters, or it could be that the test isn't a very good indicator of who would or wouldn't make a good firefighter beyond a general level of qualification (meeting a minimum set of criteria) and that only with interview and further aptitude testing is one in a good position to make that judgment. Do you know definitively that black people don't make very good firefighters?

It does seem reasonable to require a re-examination of the exam (preferably by a 3rd party who doesn't have a horse in this race) to determine why the numbers were skewed in favor of whites. After more information is available, then a reasonable decision can be made.

[SMOKE 1,426]

Go back to the questions posed. Did the choosing of those who passed with that particular grade in fact produce the best firefighter? There is at least enough evidence to convince one judge that this qualification was arbitary and meaningless in terms of finding the most suitable candidate to the job. Are you in a position to say that's false?

are you or any judge in a position to claim you know better than the board (most likely a mix of current & former firefighters) that wrote the test or made the decission to take the higher scoring applicants?

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

I want someone qualified responding to a house fire.... not someone with the 'correct' skin color.

[Peikko 1,575]

are you or any judge in a position to claim you know better than the board (most likely a mix of current & former firefighters) that wrote the test or made the decission to take the higher scoring applicants?

I am not making any claims, but I have read the OP piece and this is pertinent:

When the city appealed the decision, it did not dispute the court's finding but said that the African American applicants had filed their...

It is also worth noting that most of the time testing is put out to third party tender and it is unlikely that any of the board had input in the test or the questions posed. It is also worth noting AGAIN that there is little to suggest that anything beyond the basic pass had any meaning in determining the aptitude of a would be candidate to firefighting. In other words an 89 score and above does not GUARANTEE A MORE SUITABLE CANDIDATE GOT THE JOB.

[Peikko 1,575]

It does seem reasonable to require a re-examination of the exam (preferably by a 3rd party who doesn't have a horse in this race) to determine why the numbers were skewed in favor of whites. After more information is available, then a reasonable decision can be made.

Exactly. What bothers me is how many people think it's not a reasonable question to ask but simply accept that well, obviously white people are better qualified to become firefighters and any attempt to question that assumption are somehow pandering to favourtism for blacks. Pathetic.

[KaiserD 12]

While that is a nice assumption that makes folks feel warm on the inside, it's not reality.

Are we also going to blame the lack of quality educaiton for the uber high homicide and crime rate within the community? Or are these people simply shooting up neighborhoods in drive-bys because they are hungry? How about not being able to pick up trash or paint a house or maw the lawn? perhaps chillin in inner-city street corners helps their plight? How about they putting that iphone many in the ghetto have to use and look for work.. Or save the $4k spent on rims and buy a shirt and slacks.

Well it depends what you mean by "we"

"We" are not to blame for the difference in quality of education (or success, or crime) in black communities because "we" didn't exist when there was slavery or segregation, the reasons for these problems up until this point in time. The journey for equality for the AA community has been long, too long for sure but all we can do is try to set good examples and opportunities, not for AA especially but for Americans as a whole. You know what I mean, the reputation America has built for itself in establishing opportunities for those willing to work hard enough to succeed. I believe this includes ignoring issues such as this if it really doesn't mean anything - reverse racism isn't going to help anyone either. I hope that people aren't so tired of white guilt that they ignore real racism in situations where it does exist though.

The playing field will eventually level itself better I'm sure.

The local cultural crime activities need to be dealt with, gang activity here or drug dealing chavs that hang around chip shops. Just cause they manifest themselves differently they are pretty much the roots of the same. Maybe they need to be handled a little differently I don't know, there are many people who would like to say that being race blind is unhelpful and unrealistic. It wouldn't be the first time I've been called naive.