A Plea to Long Time, Level-Headed Members Who Still Post Here

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Kathryn, thank you for the post. I think it pretty much spells out what I feel is the matter with OT; to see it come from a mod is encouraging. I spend the bulk of my time in the UK forum for the very reasons you cite -- it's safe, I know the people there, they know my story and I know theirs. Our shared experience fosters a sense of community, and I have made several "real life" friends in there that I see on a regular basis, which in my case only strengthens the bond.

HB -- we get along very well in the UK sub-forum but I'm a little disappointed to see you pick out my point about the amount of racism -- whether overt or imputed. I was certainly employing hyperbole when I stated that it seemed every other thread was "I Hate Brown People." Perhaps it is my ancestry that makes me more sensitive to some of the attacks, even if I do not support illegal immigration, feel that the current impasse this country finds itself in is insupportable and that the sheer number of such people IS damaging this country. (Hell, I live in SoCal so it is up close and personal.) My own grandparents were illegal immigrants themselves, fleeing the Mexican Revolution as children; my grandmother and her little sister were put into saddlebags on a burro and brought over to Texas. And although my family completely assimilated (to the point that none of my generation can speak a word of Spanish beyond "donde esta la biblioteca" and "ay yi yi"), reading some of the things written in OT about Hispanic people are truly hurtful, even if I don't identify with being Hispanic at all, having been raised in New England amongst my mother's Irish/Scottish/Belgian/English family. I would feel the same way if people were hurling the same sort of invective at Belgians (an unlikely event, it's true).

And yes, it IS a hoary old chestnut to say VJ is worse than it ever has been (rebeccajo's riffs on this were epic) and it may be glib to toss that sort of sentiment around. But the amount of spammy nonsense that appears on there -- articles that are posted merely as red rags to the usual gelded bulls -- has undeniably risen. It's the work of a few people, and is such a turn off. It makes OT boring as f^ck and look like a boys' club. Pass.

This is turning into one of the more reasoned and interesting conversations I've seen on VJ for a while.

I remember when people weren't afraid to share their personal struggles/tragedies in OT and when they did, members would be supportive. There was a sense of community and I have met many members in real life but for whatever reasons, the atmosphere in OT has changed. We've always had light-hearted topics and more serious topics, but as Kathryn pointed out, antagonism now bleeds into every thread, carried over from past arguments or online spats. I know that I'm not innocent from never engaging in it, but I'm saying if we are ever going to allow serious discussions that deserve careful thought, there has to be a line drawn. That is why I think that OT needs to be divided into two categories - serious topics and "anything goes" topics. The serious topics would need the same kind of moderation and oversight that the upper forums currently have to keep the playground antics out. I hope that Captain Ewok would be willing to try this or some other possible solution that helps foster more civility in the more serious threads in OT.

Thank you for your post, Kathryn. It's one of the best I've read so far in VJ.

+ 1

Edited May 22, 2010 by El Buscador

[SMOKE 1,426]

Threatening???

endangered species n. A species present in such small numbers that it is at risk of extinction.

You said yourself the experiment died a few months ago and you are one of the few that I see still posting there and so... you are an endangered species. It's just a play on words.

Thank you for your post, Kathryn. It's one of the best I've read so far in VJ.

ty for the clarification. i thought that was what you meant. but, we haven't had much interaction so i wasn't sure. actually i think i've posted 5-10 post over there in the last 6 months. once it became clear that the rules applied to all the 'all' left & the place is really taking up server space now.

regardless of what has been stated as the intent of this thread. IMHO it is yet another attempt to sway moderation on this site.... but just like the 'experiment' proved & the OT is proving now that enforement of the TOS is uniform. - this ain't burger king & we can't always have it our way....though some keep trying.

[SuperDuper! 230]

We're just glad that Steve finally quit the "Gallstones" bit. I mean, having someone follow you around with Gallstones named after you. How creepy is that!

Well, OT'ers who intensely argue politics back and forth with no fruitful outcome should be more closely monitored 'cause topics like Obama /Guns/ Immigration, always border on hate and discontent ad hominem.

The minute you disagree with someone else's politics there, they attack you. So the disguised insults and personal attacks are given mostly free reign there.

I say make a political forum OT with a big red warning banner: Warning, opinions here are more toxic than the subject line implies.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Hopp

[Fandango 1,439]

HB -- we get along very well in the UK sub-forum but I'm a little disappointed to see you pick out my point about the amount of racism -- whether overt or imputed. I was certainly employing hyperbole when I stated that it seemed every other thread was "I Hate Brown People." Perhaps it is my ancestry that makes me more sensitive to some of the attacks, even if I do not support illegal immigration, feel that the current impasse this country finds itself in is insupportable and that the sheer number of such people IS damaging this country. (Hell, I live in SoCal so it is up close and personal.) My own grandparents were illegal immigrants themselves, fleeing the Mexican Revolution as children; my grandmother and her little sister were put into saddlebags on a burro and brought over to Texas. And although my family completely assimilated (to the point that none of my generation can speak a word of Spanish beyond "donde esta la biblioteca" and "ay yi yi"), reading some of the things written in OT about Hispanic people are truly hurtful, even if I don't identify with being Hispanic at all, having been raised in New England amongst my mother's Irish/Scottish/Belgian/English family. I would feel the same way if people were hurling the same sort of invective at Belgians (an unlikely event, it's true).

And yes, it IS a hoary old chestnut to say VJ is worse than it ever has been (rebeccajo's riffs on this were epic) and it may be glib to toss that sort of sentiment around. But the amount of spammy nonsense that appears on there -- articles that are posted merely as red rags to the usual gelded bulls -- has undeniably risen. It's the work of a few people, and is such a turn off. It makes OT boring as f^ck and look like a boys' club. Pass.

This is turning into one of the more reasoned and interesting conversations I've seen on VJ for a while.

I didn't do it to single you out, rather to address what you said, as you may or may not know that caveat is used quite a bit in OT. Someone who is historically anti-illegal is tarred with the 'racist' brush all the time, and I find it very unhelpful, and insulting. I feel sometimes one cannot say his/her peace without hearing 'you're a racist'.

While it's true that I don't patrol every thread, I was trying to be clear that the ones *I've* seen where the racist label was used, was used as ammo for debate. I'm sorry you are hurt by my bringing that up, but it certainly wasn't meant to upset or annoy you.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I say make a political forum OT with a big red warning banner: Warning, opinions here are more toxic than the subject line implies.

The problem with making a separate political forum is that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish threads that weren't necessarily political in nature, but have political overtones, such as issues over immigration. Also, almost every thread gets politicized in OT. IMO, I think most people want to enjoy being able to carry on more serious conversations about issues they care about without others wanting to turn every thread into their playground. There are plenty of light-hearted threads for people who'd rather play than get into a heavy discussion which is fine as long at they aren't spoiling it for those who do.

[Welshcookie 17]

I say make a political forum OT with a big red warning banner: Warning, opinions here are more toxic than the subject line implies.

I thought that would be a good idea myself...but in all honesty it would just overflow into other forums anyway, it isn't the subject but rather the way certain people interact with one another on here most of the time.

[GJen 9]

We need more of you to participate in the Off Topic Forum. For those who are level-headed, you know who you are and you've probably avoided OT because of the handful of posters who've made it less enjoyable to have reasonable discussions about a lot of topics that deserve some serious thought. Of course, not every thread needs to be serious, but I think the ones here who've been long time members and are still here, are staying in the upper forums where there is less tolerance for playground behavior.

What do you consider "long time" members?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

What do you consider "long time" members?

I was referring to members who used to participate in the threads in OT before but have since retreated to the upper forums, but really this is to anyone here who has been avoiding the forum because of all the playground antics that bleed into every thread.

[William33 110]

Steven,

People move on from VJ, that is a proven fact. I have not personally seen evidence of a departure to the upper threads, only VJ departures. Either way, OT is what it is. Some choose to participate and some don't....

Anyway, I wish you the best.

William.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

Steven,

People move on from VJ, that is a proven fact. I have not personally seen evidence of a departure to the upper threads, only VJ departures. Either way, OT is what it is. Some choose to participate and some don't....

Anyway, I wish you the best.

William.

Well there you go, Steven! Sounds as if you have been officially told to ####### off!

[Pooky 3,774]

I am respectfully going to disagree with a number of members here and - not speaking as a moderator but as a member of VJ who is also familiar with the moderation issues - say this topic is valid in this forum. The question is a legitimate one and in my opinion, not inflammatory. It was not

"purposely designed to upset, antagonize, make fun of, belittle, or otherwise instigate an argument that takes away from the personal enjoyment of the Service by other users"

and yet, some of those who sometimes skirt around the edges of this TOS in Off Topic, responded to this post in the same way. It is kind of illustrative of the problem in Off Topic - people often respond more to who is posting the comment than they are to the actual comment.

I think the reason some of the more prolific OT posters responded in this way is down to the timing of this thread and some of the language involved in Steven's responses. The moment the word "bigotry" was brought up ...

I know that it has become quite hostile lately, but I believe that if enough, level-headed, longtime members stood up to the bigotry and reported those who blatantly violate the TOS, the Off Topic can once again be a place where people can actually have meaningful, level-headed discussions.

... most OT posters would likely think straight away about the Arizona Immigration issue, rightly or wrongly, and the balance of the threads for and against it. If you want my opinion about it, go see it in OT.

But they would be missing the point. There are a core group of posters, from both sides of the political spectrum, who find it impossible to resist attacking other posters, even in non-political threads, rather than engaging in debate of any kind. They see a name by a post and have in insult in 10 words or less on-thread before you can blink. It is hard enough to get a rational debate started in the current divided political climate, without having a serial thread-derailer drive a bus through the middle of any discussion.

Can any form of moderation brink back sanity to OT? Without cutting back on the subjects you can post there, I seriously doubt it. Intuition can lead you to the conclusion that a post is flame-bait, but you can never guarantee that to be the case. I have been subjected to that assumption before.

Would splitting OT be an option? This has been bandied about before and rejected, I think correctly, because the lines between OT and OT-lite would be too blurred from the outset to make such a split meaningful. Same, too, with an OT Political and OT Non-Political split. Keeping control of both would make the moderators current job look like a walk in the park.

Would moderating individual posters work? Given that this is, as I see it, the core of OT's problem, it initially sounds like a good idea. It might be run on a scoring system, rather like a football, sorry soccer, disciplinary system. If I thought it might work, I'd explain it, but this type of system would never work, as subjective assessment would almost inevitably come into play, resulting in personal discrimination and unfairness, in my opinion,

So, I believe there is no easy "fix" for OT. Consequently, the only way OT is going to evolve and garner new posters is by word of mouth on the upper forums. Go out and find people who might like to engage in the serious and the silly, prepare them for needing a slightly thicker skin, and let them bring new directions to OT. Since I started looking in here on VJ, way back in 2004, OT has been a continually evolving forum and long may it continue to be so. The only way I see to bring it back from the divisive hole it finds itself in now is by continuing natural evolution.

And a little thick-skinned tolerance, too.

[GJen 9]

I was referring to members who used to participate in the threads in OT before but have since retreated to the upper forums, but really this is to anyone here who has been avoiding the forum because of all the playground antics that bleed into every thread.

I created two new games! Maybe the light-heartedness of it will attract then to the Off Topic forum where they can settle in for some deep discussion in other OT Topics.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

I didn't do it to single you out, rather to address what you said, as you may or may not know that caveat is used quite a bit in OT. Someone who is historically anti-illegal is tarred with the 'racist' brush all the time, and I find it very unhelpful, and insulting. I feel sometimes one cannot say his/her peace without hearing 'you're a racist'.

While it's true that I don't patrol every thread, I was trying to be clear that the ones *I've* seen where the racist label was used, was used as ammo for debate. I'm sorry you are hurt by my bringing that up, but it certainly wasn't meant to upset or annoy you.

No offence taken at all, Lisa. My skin is pretty thick.

[Darnell 8,478]

I dunno - I think is same pattern by the same ppl. Maybe is time for a two month time out for them ?

[TBoneTX 45,076]

Go out and find people who might like to engage in the serious and the silly, prepare them for needing a slightly thicker skin, and let them bring new directions to OT.

This sounds wise, si man. The "thicker skin" is a necessity. What I have found to be frustrating about OT is that, often, when posters (I, others) have attempted to inject a valid point of discussion into a thread of promise, or provide additional fodder for reflection, the "insultants" seem to prefer to continue their throw-flaming unabated, and they apparently ignore the attempt to focus on intelligent discussion. Many intelligent, literate, fertile-minded posters frequent OT, and (to me) it's a shame to see so many of them slide into the ditch of call-naming and personal insult rather than defend their position through debate and reason, si man. Also, OT seems to be a place where newcomers are not welcomed, because they're not a part of the established "in" clique, no man.

OT for this thread: Mrs. T-B. home-tested positive (positively?) for pregnancy today, si man.

Edited May 24, 2010 by TBoneTX