A Plea to Long Time, Level-Headed Members Who Still Post Here

[SMOKE 1,426]

We need more of you to participate in the Off Topic Forum. For those who are level-headed, you know who you are and you've probably avoided OT because of the handful of posters who've made it less enjoyable to have reasonable discussions about a lot of topics that deserve some serious thought. Of course, not every thread needs to be serious, but I think the ones here who've been long time members and are still here, are staying in the upper forums where there is less tolerance for playground behavior.

its official. steven is getting whipped at his own game & now he's looking for help.

for this 'plea' to be taken remotely serious YOU would need to quit throwing red herring all day. at least 60% of you theads are designed to cause flame wars. then bump that % up to once someone disagrees with your pov. thats when the, 'bigoted' 'racist' '**' 'flat earther' 'narrow minded' 'xenophobe' 'right wing terrorist' to name a few cans of your trademark gasoline start pumping out of your keyboard. then it goes to 'you're a troll', 'this is XYZ post under your real account'.. face it steven the days of the mods showing gross favoritism & bias are gone... if you quit looking for flame wars, you'll quit getting them.

This wasn't posted in OT, Charles, so you're acting like a troll in what was a serious topic. You are, however, providing a good example of why so many level-headed members don't bother to post anymore. Like I said earlier, there are plenty of light-hearted threads for ribbing each other, but what I'm saying is that when that bleeds into the more serious topics, it chases away people who would otherwise get involved. An example would be what happened with that "experiment" that has since become a ghost town as nobody posts there anymore.

you're an organizer move it to OT. steven you posted a OT style red herring thread in the site & related -A Plea to Long Time, Level-Headed Members Who Still Post Here-... did you think the people you bicker with & routinely attack aren't going to come read & respond to this?

OMG! this is probabaly a TOS violation. but, the 'experiment' was intended to be an unmoderated forum & it was for sometime for everyone. then certain people wanted certain others moderated. thats when the 'spam patrol' was born. the 'spam patrol' actually was instructed to & did only moderated 1 person, kept the board free of that poster & actual spam. oddly the same people asking for that person to be gone, kept talking about him 24/7...all the while it was still pretty much anything goes for everyone else. well thats not right is it? he was let back to at least defend himself..he then was booted..came back..booted..came back on & on. meanwhile people were still going on unmoderated. a group of people...actually several different groups of people didn't appreciate the tone of the conversations on the 'experiment' nor the results coming from those conversation..'cross sites'. so cross sites were launched back....hmm a TOS that almost mirrors another we were all firmiliar with was now in place....yet still not applied word for word. the former 'spam squad' forced into a 'moderator' role were instantly in a no win sitsuation. so what to do? lets see what happens. you know what happened steven. it became crystal clear that some people wanted an unmoderated forum for themselves, but not for everyone. because when the moderators on the 'experiment' did anything. it was days of 'wha wha abuse of power'. so they let it go some more. it came back to the same thing. the ones wanting the unmoderated forum couldn't take the flames coming back at them. so they left. soMEone finally got the original 'problem' to chill...but people still don't like the venom when it gets spit right back at them. so it remains a 'ghost town'....

lead change by setting an example if you want the OT to chill steven.

Well, well. OT comes to the Site Related Discussion. Couldn't see that one coming.

N/S me either

Edited May 22, 2010 by SMOKE

[Pinay Wife 47]

An example would be what happened with that "experiment" that has since become a ghost town as nobody posts there anymore.

Yup, that one lost steam ~ they turned on each other and went extinct.

[SMOKE 1,426]

Yup, that one lost steam ~ they turned on each other and went extinct.

& this thread made 25 visitors appear over there.

[Pinay Wife 47]

you're an organizer move it to OT. steven you posted a OT style red herring thread in the site & related -A Plea to Long Time, Level-Headed Members Who Still Post Here-... did you think the people you bicker with & routinely attack aren't going to come read & respond to this?

If this would have been posted in OT, I would not have seen this as I don't go there anymore. This should stay here so that the people he is trying to reach can see it.

[Pinay Wife 47]

& this thread made 25 visitors appear over there.

The "experiment" is on life support right now. You are an endangered species, Smoke

[one...two...tree 2,762]

for this 'plea' to be taken remotely serious YOU would need to quit throwing red herring all day. at least 60% of you theads are designed to cause flame wars.

Mike, this thread isn't about me and yet both you and Charles have taken it upon yourselves to take personal swipes at me when I intentionally posted this outside the playground, trying to reach out to members who no longer post in OT. You both give good examples of what I'm talking about. There are people in OT that do nothing but antagonize and turn each and every thread into a flame war or personal attack. While I have participated in some of the shenanigans that goes on in OT, there used to be enough level-head posters that kept the playground behavior in check, particularly in a thread that deserves careful thought. Right now, as it stands, it's a pretty much, anything goes, atmosphere where the Moderators haplessly try to keep things civil.

I can tell you there are a quite a few people who have stopped posting in OT or left VJ altogether over this issue.

.......

(this is directed at my intended audience - long time members who have been avoiding posting in OT)

After giving it some thought, I think the best solution would be to have Off Topic split into two forums - one that is for more serious discussions and one for light-hearted topics. The more serious OT forum would then be moderated with the same scrutiny as the upper forums are currently.

Edited May 22, 2010 by El Buscador

[Fandango 1,439]

No, Smoke is entirely on point here, and I couldn't agree more with his post. This thread is inflammatory and dramatic at best...a 'plea' to 'levelheaded' members. Which implies (to me) that you are saying there are more non-levelheaded members there, which is rude and insulting.

The threads I see you participate in are those which are more of a serious nature. There may be people there (including myself) who pretty much disagree with everything you say, but that disagreement makes neither of us non-levelheaded. The 'racism' label is thrown around wayyy too much in there, and is used as a red herring argument (most times, if not everytime that I've seen) as means of diffusing someone's conflicting opinion. I've said this a million times...if you feel something said is racist, then report it...but to sit here and paint the whole of OT as being a primarily unreasonable cesspool of rasicm where members 'hate brown people', well, that's gone wayyyyyyyy too far.

Members will come and go and perhaps come back again. The excuse 'it's worse than ever!' is as overused as the racist label. Pretty much every mb will have that same charge somewhere on their boards, and I've heard it here for almost as long as I've been here. And the fact that Ewok has chosen to govern OT the way he has will basically make it self-evolving, and those who want to participate will, the way they want...and if you don't like it, either lead by example (as Smoke said) or perhaps it's you who needs to go.

[Nagishkaw 510]

What H B said.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

I am respectfully going to disagree with a number of members here and - not speaking as a moderator but as a member of VJ who is also familiar with the moderation issues - say this topic is valid in this forum. The question is a legitimate one and in my opinion, not inflammatory. It was not

"purposely designed to upset, antagonize, make fun of, belittle, or otherwise instigate an argument that takes away from the personal enjoyment of the Service by other users"

and yet, some of those who sometimes skirt around the edges of this TOS in Off Topic, responded to this post in the same way. It is kind of illustrative of the problem in Off Topic - people often respond more to who is posting the comment than they are to the actual comment.

In Off Topic, even seriously asked questions or innocently mis-placed questions that reveal some of the emotional pain or angst or fear of the OPs, are often thrown to the wolves and devoured as if the person asking is some sort of a toy to be batted about like a cat playing with its prey. While experienced members of OT are used to this, others are not and it does chase people away. I do know many people who will not participate in OT because of the way they or such comments made by others are treated. Many of these people retreat to their Regional Forums and participate in the safer and more supportive communities they find there. It is sad because there are often non-immigration related topics I know I would like to be able to discuss seriously and carefully, but I generally don't participate because the moment someone says something 'differing' from the OP or one of the strong-opinionated individuals, then the topic is no longer under discussion and the words become heated, devolving into insults, innuendos and attacks - both personal and generalized against segments of society united by some shared trait or situation. There is very little consideration, respect or kindness of others in the OT forum. Unfortunately, it may very well be a microcosm of the greater 'politicized' community at large where there is a huge silent majority and a very vocal minority who overspeaks anyone else's attempts at participation. Everything doesn't have to become an insult against Liberals or Conservatives or Obama's fault or Bush's fault, or Islamic terrorists' fault or Christian fundamentalists fault or black/brown people's faults or white people's faults - but that is how virtually everything is treated in Off Topic - even topics that start off without any obvious connection to one of these stances.

An even more troubling aspect of this it is that this 'attitude' does overflow into the Immigration forums - the place where people are supposed to be supportive and helpful. Sardonic black humour, irony, insinuations and jumping to conclusions about motivation are rife. There is always a choice to be made about how one responds to any situation - and if people would take the time to think and compose their responses to the benefit of the topic or the individual seeking assistance, rather to their own personal need for power or ego or control or some personal agenda, it would be a much more inviting and informative environment. It is the habitual and repetitive aggression that is most troubling. Everything becomes so black and white when in reality, life isn't black and white, it is varying shades of gray with few absolutes.

So, that is my personal perspective on this issue and as both a member and a moderator I do ask that everyone continue to discuss this topic calmly and seriously, if necessary giving the benefit of the doubt to Steven, and looking at the question, not the source if that is what it takes to see the shades of gray.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Kathryn41

[SMOKE 1,426]

The "experiment" is on life support right now. You are an endangered species, Smoke

the experiment died 6-12 months ago.

endangered species? i'd like to know what you mean by that. care to elaborate? it almost sounds threatening.

[trailmix 77]

Agree with Kathryn.

The thing is, is this even possible? I sincerely doubt it. As Kathryn mentioned, there is a core group of people in OT that respond to the poster not the topic.

The cat swatting at the toy is a great analogy, they enjoy it, it's their daily fun, why on earth would they change their approach?

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Kathryn, thank you for the post. I think it pretty much spells out what I feel is the matter with OT; to see it come from a mod is encouraging. I spend the bulk of my time in the UK forum for the very reasons you cite -- it's safe, I know the people there, they know my story and I know theirs. Our shared experience fosters a sense of community, and I have made several "real life" friends in there that I see on a regular basis, which in my case only strengthens the bond.

HB -- we get along very well in the UK sub-forum but I'm a little disappointed to see you pick out my point about the amount of racism -- whether overt or imputed. I was certainly employing hyperbole when I stated that it seemed every other thread was "I Hate Brown People." Perhaps it is my ancestry that makes me more sensitive to some of the attacks, even if I do not support illegal immigration, feel that the current impasse this country finds itself in is insupportable and that the sheer number of such people IS damaging this country. (Hell, I live in SoCal so it is up close and personal.) My own grandparents were illegal immigrants themselves, fleeing the Mexican Revolution as children; my grandmother and her little sister were put into saddlebags on a burro and brought over to Texas. And although my family completely assimilated (to the point that none of my generation can speak a word of Spanish beyond "donde esta la biblioteca" and "ay yi yi"), reading some of the things written in OT about Hispanic people are truly hurtful, even if I don't identify with being Hispanic at all, having been raised in New England amongst my mother's Irish/Scottish/Belgian/English family. I would feel the same way if people were hurling the same sort of invective at Belgians (an unlikely event, it's true).

And yes, it IS a hoary old chestnut to say VJ is worse than it ever has been (rebeccajo's riffs on this were epic) and it may be glib to toss that sort of sentiment around. But the amount of spammy nonsense that appears on there -- articles that are posted merely as red rags to the usual gelded bulls -- has undeniably risen. It's the work of a few people, and is such a turn off. It makes OT boring as f^ck and look like a boys' club. Pass.

This is turning into one of the more reasoned and interesting conversations I've seen on VJ for a while.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

It's not just an OT problem.

http://immigrate2us.net/forum/showthread.php?75237-negative-posts-on-vj...

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

It's not just an OT problem.

http://immigrate2us....-posts-on-vj...

Interesting. I know the beasts turned on me when I dared to ask a question about whether or not having a joint bank account would be a dealbreaker for the I-751. (We didn't have one.) My commitment to my husband was questioned because I said I wouldn't get one just for immigration purposes, and that there needed to be a more compelling reason. Luckily my dear friend Trompe le Monde (who is also a friend IRL too) told me to ignore the f^ckers. And wouldn't you know it, approved in 2 months. And that was for something as relatively anodyne as lifting conditions!

[Pinay Wife 47]

the experiment died 6-12 months ago.

endangered species? i'd like to know what you mean by that. care to elaborate? it almost sounds threatening.

Threatening???

endangered species n. A species present in such small numbers that it is at risk of extinction.

You said yourself the experiment died a few months ago and you are one of the few that I see still posting there and so... you are an endangered species. It's just a play on words.

Thank you for your post, Kathryn. It's one of the best I've read so far in VJ.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Pinay Wife