Going to Odessa to see my SO WOOHOOOOO!!!!!!!

[slim 1,525]

I have 15 in my desk. How can one keep house with only 15 guns? Slim, #######? 15? Is it possible to live with only 15?

As of right now, I'm in the single digits. While I'm a firm believer in having a basement full of AK-47s for my friends, family and neighbors, I've never had the means to realize that dream. Perhaps someday I'll be able to.

I've always wondered why the man who owns 15 is more dangerous than the man who owns 1. This is also a common misdirection by the "bandwagon." I realize it's rooted in political misdirection but I'd like to give the american (notice the small a?) people more credit than that. Alas, I can't. People are more scared of 2 than 1. More scared of 15 than 2. More scared of "high-powered, automatic, assault-style, military-type" weapons than "sporting rifles" even though they're made at the same place with the same parts by the same folks. I get it. The man who is truly scary is not the man who has 1500 guns in his basement - it's the man who's converted 1500 of his neighbors to be private citizens who are proficient in the use of "sporting rifles." Since the american people are much to busy to wait while that man passes around his one rifle, he's a lot easier to defeat.

Words, not bullets. Information is truly the most deadly killer of all.

Regardless of how many firearms a man owns, I've yet to meet the man with more than two hands so I'm still not sure how that man could operate more than two guns at a time. (Quad .50 aside!) And of the men I know who can operate two guns at a time, 99% prefer to operate one at a time since effectiveness is increased two-fold by using both hands.

Get off the bandwagon and get to the range.

[slim 1,525]

I tried to edit that last post but my browser is f'd up. Anyway, what I was trying to say was those who form their opinions based on what they've been led to believe need to get to the range. Not the guys who have 1500 guns in their basement.

I also forgot to add, based on Gary's comments I'm going to start countering anti-gunners with what I'll now call the "numismatic retort." When they start going on about how many guns people should own or how old they should be, etc., I'll hit them with "well what are you going to do next, restrict how much change I can have in my pocket?"

"Should a coin collector be restricted on the number of or type of coins he can own? Perhaps we should regulate the value of his coins and have him fill out a transfer sheet every time he buys or sells one. Maybe we should have him get a background check each time as well."

"Why would we do that, they're just coins."

"So you're telling me it's stupid to do all that when someone wants to collect metal objects?"

Bullseye!

[Terry&Tigger 4]

I honestly believe my wife loves me because I'm an excellent marksman. There is no other reason. I'm unemployed, fat, bald and don't do much to give her physical pleasure. It must be because I can shoot. That's about all I've got left!

America didn't have an invader in WWII. Yes, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor (which was not yet "America") but when they were considering invading our west coast, they stopped short because "behind every blade of grass there was a man with a rifle."

Don't think an armed populace deters foreign invaders?

Ask your comrades who went to Afghanistan. Ask ours who are there now. Consider why we never did more to aid Somalia. Why haven't we tried to help Darfur by sending troops instead of having kids on MTV buy bracelets?

Men on the ground with rifles is the single most effective deterent to tyranny and/or invasion. That's why we have guns in America. Not to go duck hunting.

And there is no instinct for women to fear guns. The only way to develop an aversion to a man-made inanimate metal object is to be taught to fear it. That does not make it an instinct, that makes it a learned behavior. Some women may have a reason why they do not like guns but it's not a good reason. Nor is it an instinct. It's ignorance, actually.

It's not the inanimate metal objects that are evil. The evil lies inside of human beings who make conscious choices. Reality is inanimate metal objects still can't make choices. Never could. Probably never will.

So let me get this straight.... you're saying a country that's allowed it's citizens to privately own firearms since 1776 and has since had ONE foreign invader attack in a short-lived conflict is playing games yet all those countries in Europe - most of which have been either at war in one form or another or invaded by a foreign army at huge cost to human life - are taking it more seriously?

By your argument, shouldn't Europe and FSU be more secure than America? I mean, if the government can protect it's people and the citizens have no guns, shouldn't they be more safe than all those crazy Americans with their 15 guns in their homes?

I believe you just shot yourself in the foot.

No, I don't believe that America has had only one attempted invasion because all of you guys have guns. It has to do with the oceans separating you from the places where the invaders were historically from.

I do agree that evil lies in the human beings who make choices, but, to my mind, the governments are MEANT to regulate that, and giving a gun to any human being who likes to own one, does not seem a responsible thing to do. Any psychological check-up done before that?

Afganistan? Are you considering Afganistan NORMAL? Are you asking me to ask around the guys who were there for a REGULAR attitude to guns? They are half-crazy, waking up in the middle of the night because they hear the sound of chopper over their heads, is that what people should feel to REALLY appreciate the power of guns?

And yes, I admit, that at my shooting skills test at high school I got only 7-6-3 out of 10-10-10. But no, my feet are ok.

And oh! Sorry to disappoint you, slim, but imho, your wife loves you IN SPITE of the fact you are fat, bald, unemployed and ugly. Not BECAUSE you are an excellent marksman. YOU might love yourself because you are an excellent marksman. She just loves YOU.

Thank you guys for making it easier for me to understand the only issue me and my US fiance have been arguing about. Without indirectly calling me ignorant and close-minded just because I am a woman and my point of view does not coincide with yours.

[LvivLovers 39]

No, still helping out here. Alla is taking an "online course" while she is on vacation and she is sending essays to me to review before she submits them. She does real well, actually, but there is an occasional mis-spelling or misues of an article or "tense", but not bad at all. I reviewed two of her essays today, both multiple pages and I do not think there was more than 8-10 mistakes. And it is very difficult, technical writing.

It may be generalizing, but Alla does not accept anything but an A or A+ for her work or the boys. Is it a Ukrainian thing? She flipped out because she finished with a 3.93 GPA and wants to KNOW why she lost .07 point! Dammit! I keep telling her it is "near perfect" and all she wants to know is "What wasn't perfect???"

That sounds a lot like my wife. I think it's just an individual thing though. In my wife's case, she is just very very driven. Like when it comes time for final exams in her math classes...she will literally go through and work every single problem from homeworks/quizzes/tests that she had during that whole period. When she gets to her final exam and it's cumulative...she worked every single problem from the whole semester again. She fills up an entire spiral notebook in like 2-3 days while studying. Needless to say after 4 math classes, she's never gotten less than 100% on a final exam, so I guess it pays off.

I can say this too though...she has a LOT more homework than I had in college. Because these days, nearly everything is computerized (and graded by computers as well). Thus, her professors have no problem assigning tons of homework. I guess in the long run it's good because she gets lots of practice, but sometimes it's hard to keep up just due to lack of time.

[LvivLovers 39]

As to guns...I can say I'm definately not a marksman. That's why if I need a gun, I'll borrow this from my brother:

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Most certainly! Nothing says 'this guys got buttloads of self-esteem' like repeatedly trying to convince a bunch of people on the internet that your life's awesome.

Just to be perfectly clear. I have NEVER said my life is "awesome". I have related some true tidbits about my life and relationship with my wife in a forum I thought that such is a part of.

YOU came to the conclusion my life is "awesome"

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

No, I don't believe that America has had only one attempted invasion because all of you guys have guns. It has to do with the oceans separating you from the places where the invaders were historically from.

I do agree that evil lies in the human beings who make choices, but, to my mind, the governments are MEANT to regulate that, and giving a gun to any human being who likes to own one, does not seem a responsible thing to do. Any psychological check-up done before that?

Afganistan? Are you considering Afganistan NORMAL? Are you asking me to ask around the guys who were there for a REGULAR attitude to guns? They are half-crazy, waking up in the middle of the night because they hear the sound of chopper over their heads, is that what people should feel to REALLY appreciate the power of guns?

And yes, I admit, that at my shooting skills test at high school I got only 7-6-3 out of 10-10-10. But no, my feet are ok.

And oh! Sorry to disappoint you, slim, but imho, your wife loves you IN SPITE of the fact you are fat, bald, unemployed and ugly. Not BECAUSE you are an excellent marksman. YOU might love yourself because you are an excellent marksman. She just loves YOU.

Thank you guys for making it easier for me to understand the only issue me and my US fiance have been arguing about. Without indirectly calling me ignorant and close-minded just because I am a woman and my point of view does not coincide with yours.

America, on the other hand, has crossed those same oceans and repeatedly invaded, conquered and then (just to add insult) gave the country BACK. It took us far less time to move a 12 million man army across that ocean, across half the continent of Europe to invade and conquer Germany than it took the Soviet Union to do the same from right next door. Just sayin'. Other countries going as far back as 1803 (Tripoli)were invade and smashed by the USA. Oceans are no barrier to well equipped people proficient with arms. Well equipped people proficient with arms ARE a huge barrier to invaders. Witness Sweden and Switzerland, boith surrounded by Nazi occupied territory yet their people were not invaded...because they are ALL armed. Are you telling me that Germonay couldn;t cross a 22 mile stretch of water but WE could cross 3000 miles? You think it was 22 miles of water that saved the UK? Yeah, that and 700,000 firearms sent from the US to UK. The war we lost was not because of an ocean, but because we couldn't stop the flow of GUNS to our enemy. Unlike Germany whose war making ability we destroyed, VietNam's war making ability came from elsewhere, the Soviet Union for one, China for another, and we were not willing to go there. We should never have started down that road in my opinion. Sorry but there is ample, repeated evidence that a well armed David can kick the @ss of any Goliath on earth. The USSR had its own adventure of the same sort in Afghanistan.

Great Britian was invading countries long before we ever did UNTIL they crossed that ocean one too many times and met up with Americans armed with state of the art muskets and rifles. They were soundly whipped.

You come from a culture where the arms restrictions you experience are "relative freedom" compared to the Soviet Union. It is realtive slavery compared to the United States. The one thing you should understand is that the consept of the US is that the government does not regulate things. we go from that basis. You go from the basis that they regulate everything and allow you some things without regulation. We are the opposite.

Look, whenever bad people do bad things with guns, what do we do? WE (collective "we") call on GOOD men with guns to stop the bad men with guns. It is universal worldwide. You call the police because they have guns. You call the military because they have guns. Good people with guns can stop bad people with guns. Big surprise. Are you surprised by this? Vasily Zeitseev was a good man with a gun made in New Jersey and he killed bad men in Stalingrad with his rifle. Because there are more GOOD people, they win...IF they have guns. IF you allow ALL good people to carry guns concealed at ALL times, anywhere, the much smaller number of bad men with guns are less inclined to try to victimize good people. Good people go on about life and bad people go where good people can;t have guns. It doesn't matter if it is your neighborhood armed robber or a tin-pot dictator. They all take the path of least resistance.

Understand also, that unless you will be living in Wisconsin or Illinois you will be surrounded by armed people wherever you go in the USA. Wisconsin will pass concealed carry next year. They have done it but up until now the governor has vetoed it, the governor is gone as of this year and both men running for the office have said they will sign concealed carry legislation. Illinois will be the only disarmed state.

You do not have to be stronger than your enemy, you only have to be stronger than another potential victim.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

and it should be clarified to Tigger, who didn't have history class in the US, and probably never even heard the song "The Battle of New Orleans" that the ONE attempt to invade this country WAS an ocean crossing adventure by England in 1812-1815.

We had several of the battels here in Vermont and Lake Champlain was a major battlefield along with Burlington VT. The cannons still overlook the lake where they blasted the British ships. Scuba diving the remnants of British ships (that made it ALL THE WAY here from Britain, but never went back) with large holes in them is a popular past time in Lake Champlain. It is slightly humorous to me that you would say the "oceans protected us" when the lake outside my door is littered with British ships with cannon ball holes in them from cannons which are still in our city park where we walk. Care to re-think that?

The British did not lose because they had to cross an coean. They lost because Andy (by God) Jackson and the Americans he led SHOT a very large percentage of British soldiers in the eye with their squirrel rifles.

It has been 200 years since anyone else was dumb enough to try that. How long has it been since the last war in Europe?

[slim 1,525]

Just wanted everyone to know we've officially made it. Today when I logged on to VJ, instead of getting the usual "Immigrate to the U.S." banner ad across the top, an ad for Front Sight firearms training institute popped up. Score!

Brandon, that's a pretty sweet street sweeper. If I was you I wouldn't take that out in public since that's one of the most evil of the evil inanimate metal objects. (But if I'm ever down that way perhaps we could meet up to get some good YouTube video going. I have a nice vid of me with a full-auto 12ga AK. Would love to see how that thing stacks up.)

No, I don't believe that America has had only one attempted invasion because all of you guys have guns. It has to do with the oceans separating you from the places where the invaders were historically from.

While I won't disagree with the oceans helping out, I will point out that once those oceans are crossed, they still have to deal with an armed populace and as Gary has illustrated above, it didn't work out too well for the one country that tried it. We currently have another country looming to try us again but they too can't muster the necessary firepower to overcome our citizenry. In theory, they could, they have enough guys and enough guns, but there's no possible way they could mass enough invaders in our territory before we eliminated them. It would be like the carnival shooting gallery!

Compare that to the beaches at Normandy. There was fierce resistance and even though the allies landed overwhelming forces, they were only fighting a foreign military power that wasn't supported by an armed citizenry. By and large the citizens of occupied territories were supportive of the allies advance. Here in America that wouldn't happen. The citizens themselves would be the ones fighting the invaders if the red dragon ever swims over the horizon.

I do agree that evil lies in the human beings who make choices, but, to my mind, the governments are MEANT to regulate that, and giving a gun to any human being who likes to own one, does not seem a responsible thing to do. Any psychological check-up done before that?

So why doesn't the Russian government do psychological check-ups on people before selling them vodka? I mean, after all, vodka is the number one cause of death among Russian men. You would think that a government so afraid of pieces of metal would also be afraid of the liquid inside a bottle that's more deadly to it's people.

Why don't they do it? Because it doesn't make any sense. Vodka is as much a part of Russia as guns are to America.

Afganistan? Are you considering Afganistan NORMAL? Are you asking me to ask around the guys who were there for a REGULAR attitude to guns? They are half-crazy, waking up in the middle of the night because they hear the sound of chopper over their heads, is that what people should feel to REALLY appreciate the power of guns?

First off, what's a "REGULAR" attitude to guns? Also, what's "NORMAL?"

My point with Afghanistan is not that it's a wonderful society and we should all do our best to imitate life there. My point is it's extremely hard for foreign invaders to conquer a country where the average citizen (who is not law enforcement or military - just your "NORMAL and REGULAR" guys) is armed. Of the handful of countries in the world who have a government in place that "allows" (or requires!) it's citizens to be armed, their record is pretty good at not being defeated, even if occupied for a short time.

While folks in America may say guns are not necessary to do this because we have the best military in the world, it's one of the fundamental principals upon which our country was established. Regardless of how opponents argue this issue today it's highly unlikely we'll see it change in our lifetime.

And yes, I admit, that at my shooting skills test at high school I got only 7-6-3 out of 10-10-10. But no, my feet are ok.

It's absolutely AWESOME that you had a shooting skills test in high school! I can picture soccer moms here freaking out and crashing their minivans, spilling their low-fat soy lattes on themselves and even dropping their iphones after hearing their kids had a "shooting" test at school. HA!

My comments weren't posted to suggest you couldn't shoot and lacked skill in that aspect. I was trying to illustrate the fact that your bias against inanimate metal objects isn't based on your understanding of them but moreover "what you've heard about them."

And oh! Sorry to disappoint you, slim, but imho, your wife loves you IN SPITE of the fact you are fat, bald, unemployed and ugly. Not BECAUSE you are an excellent marksman. YOU might love yourself because you are an excellent marksman. She just loves YOU.

I didn't type ugly, did I? I fancy myself as a right attractive fellow.

Also, I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the way I hit the target every time. My rate of fire is pretty good too!

Thank you guys for making it easier for me to understand the only issue me and my US fiance have been arguing about. Without indirectly calling me ignorant and close-minded just because I am a woman and my point of view does not coincide with yours.

So the real issue comes out.

OK. You know, you could've just simply posted "My fiance has guns, I don't like them. I'm also not sure if I want my kid around them in our house. Thoughts?"

As I said above, guns are as much a part of American heritage as vodka is Russian. First, there are ways to 100% safely keep a gun in the house, even around children. (You can keep 15 guns safely too!) While you've been led to believe they're inherently evil and instruments of death and all that mumbo-jumbo - NONE OF THAT IS TRUE! They're simply inanimate pieces of metal. Simple little mechanical devices. Nothing more, nothing less.

You're probably also going to have a car when you come here to the U.S. Probably a lawn mower. Maybe if you're real lucky you'll have an automatic clothes washing machine and "dry machine" as well. An oven in your kitchen. If your husband is rich, you may even have a dishwasher that washes all the dishes for you. (They're wonderful! Both dishwashers and rich husbands!)

Every single one of those mechanical devices you're going to make sure your kid can't use to injure themselves. You can do the same with guns. It is 100% possible to store them in a safe way that NO ONE can get injured. NO ONE.

Then, once you make them "ready" to be used, you can do so in a safe way and NO ONE will get injured then either. NO ONE.

While I'm sure you're not 100% convinced yet because guns are "bad" and you've been conditioned to believe average people shouldn't have them and don't need them, I hope that you'll at least agree to allow your husband to not only keep the guns he has, but also to teach you the proper way to use them safely. After you've done that, then we can talk a little bit more about how you really feel about these metal objects and if it's the object that makes society so evil or something else.

I'm not going to sit here and say I don't mind the fact that just this past weekend 7 people in my community were shot. Yes, that bothers me.

But it doesn't bother me because those people were killed with guns. It bothers me because they were killed. 2 people were also stabbed to death over the weekend. Yet regardless of how many people are shot or stabbed or drown in a bathtub we never hear anything about what causes circumstances so dire that humans will kill one another. We're afraid to face those issues.

Russia will not address why men drink so much vodka. America will not address why people shoot each other.

Guns cause crime in America the same way vodka causes crime in Russia. They don't!

[cranehand 0]

WOW And to think I was just saying I was going to Odessa to se ma girl

I love this place

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Good answers Slim

As for "anyone owning a gun" well, yes and no. We undergo a backgorund check when we purchase a firearm from de=alers licensed to sell fireams. The background check is to see if we have a criminal convictions and about 14 other diqualifying factors, including mental instability. NO, we do not go to a psychiatrist for a check-up and I do not think anyone would suggest such a thing, but there is a check made if we have any history of mental illness which made it into the court systems. Most gun owners in this country have no objection to the background check, I do not.

Most states that allow concealed carry also require a background check to be isued a concealed carry license. Vermont has no permit and allows anyone to carry a firearm IF they are legally allowed to OWN a firearm. For example, convicted felons are not allowed to posess firearms, so clearly they cannot legally carry one. Alaska and, most recently Arizona, have also allowed anyone to carry concealed without a permit but offer permits as an option. why would a gun owner opt for a permit? Because most other states would accept it! The bad thing about our freedom in Vermont is that it doesn't go with me when I travel to one of the oppressive states that require permits.

Personally I think the whole permit thing is a waste of time and money. Criminals and mentally unstable people do not care if they comply with the law...they intend to commit a crime far more evil than carrying a gun. Just let the good people be armed.

Also...just so you aren't one of those that says we need "more gun laws" without knowing what we already have

1. You must be 18 toi buy a shotgun or rifle

2. You must be 21 to purchase a handgun

3. You can purchase a handgun only in the state where you live

4. You must purchase firearms in person, show ID and have a background check. You cannot order guns by any means and have them delivered to your door. Until 1969 we could.

States have other laws, but those are the federal ones. It is not correct to say that "anyone" can buy or own a gun in the US. ANY law abiding citizen OR Legal Permanent Resident CAN, but that sis our right, the government cannot take that away from or regulate it from law abiding citizens. We will soon have another landmark Supremem Court ruling regarding local and state gun laws. I fully expect hundreds if not thousands of laws to be wiped off the books. Good riddance!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

WOW And to think I was just saying I was going to Odessa to se ma girl

I love this place

This is the RUB forum...you do not "just say" anything!

We are the envy of most of the uncivilized world...particularly the heathens in UK/Canada/Ireland/Anzacs and anyone else that is married to women that speak English as a primary language

Edited June 8, 2010 by Gary and Alla

[slim 1,525]

Good answers Slim

Just posting facts. Hard to go wrong when you speak the truth!

Most gun owners in this country have no objection to the background check, I do not.

Fundamentally I object with it because not only does it "infringe" upon my right to keep and bear arms it also does absolutely nothing to deter crime. Criminals can still acquire firearms by other means. It's also more unnecessary government beauracracy that costs the tax payers money.

Practically, I have no problem with it as it's a rather smooth system and it doesn't inconvenience me too much when I get delayed every single time I purchase firearms via a 4473. But it is kind of sad that I have to sit there with fingers crossed hoping I "pass the test" and can exercise my constitutional rights. I always have to wait three days but hey, at least they still "allow" me to purchase a firearm in a legal manner.

Personally I think the whole permit thing is a waste of time and money. Criminals and mentally unstable people do not care if they comply with the law...they intend to commit a crime far more evil than carrying a gun. Just let the good people be armed.

The only effective way to deter gun crime is to shoot criminals, relocate them indefinitely, or eliminate the underlying causes of crime. What the average american (notice the small "a" again?) doesn't understand is crime doesn't get stopped by a new bill becoming a law. Criminals don't pause mid-crime and say, "oh shoot. The law just passed. Guess I'll stop doing what I was about to do." They are criminals because they ignore the law. They disregard the laws that bind most of us to act in a socially acceptable manner.

For whatever reason there's an entire group of people out there who think if we have a law, ordinance, rule or prohibition written down somewhere that it will stop people from taking action. As history teaches us... that simply doesn't work.

However, good people carrying guns works quite well!

Keep in mind we've already outlawed murder, rape, robbery, drugs, etc., here in the U.S. as well. Perhaps we should make all that stuff - and guns too - "more" illegal. Do you think that would work? Would the criminals stop then?

You cannot order guns by any means and have them delivered to your door.

Irony of ironies is the U.S. Government sponsors a program called the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) that will ship a M-1 Garand, the same rifle our fathers and grandfathers used to liberate Europe, straight to someone's front door provided they meet certain criteria.

Now, while that's not going to get Johnny gang banger a new burner for pulling drive by shootings, it is placing a very powerful, semi-automatic, military-style main battle rifle into the hands of the civilian population. Shipping it to their front door, no less.

The ironic part of all that is the CMP is proof that america (little "a" again) doesn't understand squat about guns. They continually attempt to conect crime to the ease and availability of acquiring a firearms, the lack of laws concerning firearms, the type of firearms, and anything else they can think of that has absolutely nothing to do with crime.

States have other laws, but those are the federal ones. It is not correct to say that "anyone" can buy or own a gun in the US. ANY law abiding citizen OR Legal Permanent Resident CAN, but that sis our right, the government cannot take that away from or regulate it from law abiding citizens. We will soon have another landmark Supremem Court ruling regarding local and state gun laws. I fully expect hundreds if not thousands of laws to be wiped off the books. Good riddance!

I remember when they were talking about passing the concealed carry laws here and then again recently talking about lifting some of the more prohibitive city codes concerning firearms.

"They just gon' let all these criminals start carrying guns around and they gon' end up shooting each other and they gon' kill our babies. That ain't right! I hope they don't pass none of them laws. Unh uh. We don't need them criminals carrying guns around."

Uh... why would criminals be allowed to carry guns around?

We're so preoccupied with stopping the bad behavior of criminals that we've now allowed ourselves to be restricted as well. That's like saying "I don't mind if they blindfold that guy and fly him to a foreign country to waterboard him. He's BAD!"

Folks, when you willfully give up one of your Rights.... you open the door for them to take away the rest of them as well. If you're dumb enough to give up your 2A Rights - you WILL lose the rest, if you're lucky. Yep. If you're lucky you'll just lose them. If you're unlucky someone will forcibly remove them from your grasp. Try stopping that guy with "the law." See if that piece of paper deters him.

We are the envy of most of the uncivilized world...particularly the heathens in UK/Canada/Ireland/Anzacs and anyone else that is married to women that speak English as a primary language

Here, here!

[Terry&Tigger 4]

WOW And to think I was just saying I was going to Odessa to se ma girl

I love this place

:rofl:

[Terry&Tigger 4]

slim,

Ok people die of vodka, but vodka is the same as whiskey or brandy in spirit contents. We sell vodka without psychological check-up, you sell whiskey AND guns without psychological check-up.

thank you America for the guns during WWII. I am sorry your history schoolbooks tell you America won it, though, because it is BS I am not even going to further comment on.

thanks for an interesting conversation, anyway