Going to Odessa to see my SO WOOHOOOOO!!!!!!!

[VisaJourneyLady 33]

(I really have blown the "self esteem" theory out, haven't I?)

Most certainly! Nothing says 'this guys got buttloads of self-esteem' like repeatedly trying to convince a bunch of people on the internet that your life's awesome.

Ode to Alla:

[Brad and Vika 129]

Most certainly! Nothing says 'this guys got buttloads of self-esteem' like repeatedly trying to convince a bunch of people on the internet that your life's awesome.

Poiteen - no one without an Eastern European in their life would really get this.

[Terry&Tigger 4]

PLUS I am a damn good shot, AA in all four guages in skeet and "expert" in Hi-power rifle.

ok now could you please develop that one? Does Alla really appreciate that? Does any woman really appreciate that?

[visaveteran 1]

ok now could you please develop that one? Does Alla really appreciate that? Does any woman really appreciate that?

You'll be hearing from Slim very soon!

Seriously, the times I've gone to gun ranges I've seen a surprising number of women shooters. These are white collar professional women by in large. And, several of the range officers are women. I also see a number of dads shooting with their daughters. There's a fair number of women who shoot skeet and trap as well. Some are champions.

I do think it's still true many American women are anti-gun for whatever reasons. My ex wife was very unhappy when I first took my son shooting. I'm not sure about Russian women and guns. My wife has encouraged me to take her shooting and she knows I own a number of firearms and has no issues with it. I know a number of RUB forum men have mentioned they take their wives shooting.

[slim 1,525]

Of course I have to weigh in on this one!

Are there women out there who really think a husband that's a good shot is something important? Absolutely!

If we take this all the way back to the biological level and examine the genetic make-up of why a woman is attracted to a man and chooses to be pair-coupled with him, being a good shot might not be the first thing on the list or even noticeable on the surface. But, if you dig a little deeper and get to the true root of why a woman chooses a man, it's always because he can provide her with security and an environment where she can raise her children.

In modern times we can add his smile or sense of humor, his job, the neighborhood he lives in... but even if you break all those down, they still have something to do with the eventual success of the offspring living in a family environment the man leads. (Or, since we're talking modern here, "an environment he's privileged to share with her and mutually support." Good enough, Can/UK sponsors?)

Whether or not a modern woman will admit it, a man who makes her feel secure is still important to her. I believe most RUB women are less likely to deny this than others but since it was a RUB woman who posted this stuff, I'll post a question for her. Maybe his marksmanship ability isn't known to you or maybe it doesn't seem important, but I'd be willing to bet that he still makes you feel secure, no?

Marksmanship proficiency is simply a measureable way to determine how well modern man can use the tools of security. It's also important to note that a man who's mastered marksmanship possesses the skills and talents necessary to master many of life's other challenges as well. While it may not seem that modern day marksmanship directly contributes to security of the family, a man in possession of the skills inherent to being a great marksman will also be successful at modern day family security features such as working, paying bills, having enough patience to deal with a woman, etc.

It could be somewhat difficult for a woman to connect marksmanship and shooting with the same biologic necessity to seek out a mate who possesses such skills. It's been absolutely unnecessary in today's world and most women born after The Great Patriotic War haven't needed to select a mate based on his ability to protect her - only to provide for her and make enough money to put a roof over her head, shoes on the kids, food on the table. But, one trip to the range could be all it takes to change that. Your deep, inner-self that you've denied in today's modern world could come screaming to the surface after you've witnessed your mate exhibit the ability to conquer his fellow man in battle.

Or not. It may never happen. You may never need to know this feeling. God willing, we'll never again need the ancient skills hard-wired in our DNA that enable us to end the lives of anyone we deem a threat to ourselves and our families. Hopefully the world will just keep trudging along as is and we'll lead lives of ignorance and happiness growing fat off McDonald's and wasting our lives away sitting on the couch watching American Idol.

But for those who know this fact, those who've acknowledged it's very existence, it is truly enlightening and the bliss of ignorance comes not from wasting away one's life, but from harnessing the inner-strength and multiplying it by coupling it with the inherent skills and abilities of your mate.

I remember trying to get my mother to go shooting with me one day. "Mom, you should learn to use a rifle." Her reply was she didn't need to because her husband and sons could all shoot. "I'm the mom. I do mom jobs. You boys can protect me." She elaborated further by telling me how it was comforting for her to know if there ever was a tragedy or event where we'd need to live as our ancestors once lived, her husband (and now sons too) would be more than able to provide for her needs and the needs of her family.

While we can say that building a fire and catching food is just as important, it's extremely hard to do that without being a proficient marksman first. Marksmanship is the top of the food chain. You can have the nicest fire and most food, but one marksman can make that his fire and food. Your wife becomes his wife. Your offspring become his. If a woman is comfortable in the belief that her marksman is more proficient than other men out there, she will be more willing and able to do her "mom jobs" and the cycle of blissfully ignorant human life will continue.

I mentioned to my wife I was thinking about selling a few of my rifles. Her reply, "I think you better keep."

She gets it.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Most certainly! Nothing says 'this guys got buttloads of self-esteem' like repeatedly trying to convince a bunch of people on the internet that your life's awesome.

Ode to Alla:

I'm sorry you didn't marry a Ukrainian, but that was your decision. There is a sour grapes forum for people that married lower on the evolutionary scale. Interesting that noe of US ever go there and say bad things. I think that says it all.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

ok now could you please develop that one? Does Alla really appreciate that? Does any woman really appreciate that?

Yes. Alla appreciates I am good at what I do. It is like a free bonus, one of those things that you are better off knowing whether you need it or not. Like ballroom dancing. Besides that, Alla truly enjoys shooting also, but she doesn't like me doing it in the basement (go figure...she is a girl) And so far she hasn't used the 28 ga. shotgun I bought her for skeet but she does enjoy shootng .22 rifles and pistols and the occasional .38 It doesn;t bother her at all that I am armed everywhere we go, especially since she knows if anyone bothers her I can choose which EYE to shoot him in. FSU girls enjoy such precision.

She also likes having a man teach the boys about guns, fishing, power tools, etc.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Of course I have to weigh in on this one!

Are there women out there who really think a husband that's a good shot is something important? Absolutely!

If we take this all the way back to the biological level and examine the genetic make-up of why a woman is attracted to a man and chooses to be pair-coupled with him, being a good shot might not be the first thing on the list or even noticeable on the surface. But, if you dig a little deeper and get to the true root of why a woman chooses a man, it's always because he can provide her with security and an environment where she can raise her children.

In modern times we can add his smile or sense of humor, his job, the neighborhood he lives in... but even if you break all those down, they still have something to do with the eventual success of the offspring living in a family environment the man leads. (Or, since we're talking modern here, "an environment he's privileged to share with her and mutually support." Good enough, Can/UK sponsors?)

Whether or not a modern woman will admit it, a man who makes her feel secure is still important to her. I believe most RUB women are less likely to deny this than others but since it was a RUB woman who posted this stuff, I'll post a question for her. Maybe his marksmanship ability isn't known to you or maybe it doesn't seem important, but I'd be willing to bet that he still makes you feel secure, no?

Marksmanship proficiency is simply a measureable way to determine how well modern man can use the tools of security. It's also important to note that a man who's mastered marksmanship possesses the skills and talents necessary to master many of life's other challenges as well. While it may not seem that modern day marksmanship directly contributes to security of the family, a man in possession of the skills inherent to being a great marksman will also be successful at modern day family security features such as working, paying bills, having enough patience to deal with a woman, etc.

It could be somewhat difficult for a woman to connect marksmanship and shooting with the same biologic necessity to seek out a mate who possesses such skills. It's been absolutely unnecessary in today's world and most women born after The Great Patriotic War haven't needed to select a mate based on his ability to protect her - only to provide for her and make enough money to put a roof over her head, shoes on the kids, food on the table. But, one trip to the range could be all it takes to change that. Your deep, inner-self that you've denied in today's modern world could come screaming to the surface after you've witnessed your mate exhibit the ability to conquer his fellow man in battle.

Or not. It may never happen. You may never need to know this feeling. God willing, we'll never again need the ancient skills hard-wired in our DNA that enable us to end the lives of anyone we deem a threat to ourselves and our families. Hopefully the world will just keep trudging along as is and we'll lead lives of ignorance and happiness growing fat off McDonald's and wasting our lives away sitting on the couch watching American Idol.

But for those who know this fact, those who've acknowledged it's very existence, it is truly enlightening and the bliss of ignorance comes not from wasting away one's life, but from harnessing the inner-strength and multiplying it by coupling it with the inherent skills and abilities of your mate.

I remember trying to get my mother to go shooting with me one day. "Mom, you should learn to use a rifle." Her reply was she didn't need to because her husband and sons could all shoot. "I'm the mom. I do mom jobs. You boys can protect me." She elaborated further by telling me how it was comforting for her to know if there ever was a tragedy or event where we'd need to live as our ancestors once lived, her husband (and now sons too) would be more than able to provide for her needs and the needs of her family.

While we can say that building a fire and catching food is just as important, it's extremely hard to do that without being a proficient marksman first. Marksmanship is the top of the food chain. You can have the nicest fire and most food, but one marksman can make that his fire and food. Your wife becomes his wife. Your offspring become his. If a woman is comfortable in the belief that her marksman is more proficient than other men out there, she will be more willing and able to do her "mom jobs" and the cycle of blissfully ignorant human life will continue.

I mentioned to my wife I was thinking about selling a few of my rifles. Her reply, "I think you better keep."

She gets it.

Well said. Basically, Alla doesn't like wussies! Not many people I know that are good shots (and I know a lot of them) are wussies. And I carry the M1911 with the hammer cocked over a live round in the chamber like a real man who ain't skeered of machinery!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

ok now could you please develop that one? Does Alla really appreciate that? Does any woman really appreciate that?

A little development is in order I suppose. Have you ever seen a man that is confident with handling firearms? I can liken them to a man that is very proficient at marshall arts. They really have nothing to fear from pretty much anything, and they are not skeered of the gun because they have mastered it. Slim makes some good descriptions. A man confident in the use of firearms, really good and comfortable with things that can kill you in milliseconds....well that guy is pretty much in control of things around him. Who do you think sets the time I go to meetings for my job? Someone else? You think I wake up early to be somewhere at someone else's beck and call?

How upset do you think I get at daily things? The guy who has a .45 cocked and locked and is comfortable with that tucked into his waistband...well he isn't getting all to upset over the electric bill, solving a problem with immigration, or fixing a broken water line, figuring out how to pay this years tuition for the son in college, etc.

Alla likes a calm personality and a man that is in charge. She likes a "quiet life" and not worrying about things she would rather not worry about, because her man can do that, her man will do that and her man doesn't get all too upset when she does her "stupid girl things".

Is it because I am a good shot? Hmmm, which came first the chicken or the egg? I learned a lot from shooting, patience and trigger control for one thing and that you do not shoot a perfect score in skeet by breaking 25 targets, you shoot a perfect score by breaking 25 targets 1 at a time. You do not accomplish anything worthwhile when you are upset and your mind is not in the game. Shooting is far more a mind and mental game than a physical game. If you cannot control your mind, your concentration your thoughts and actions, you simply cannot be a good shot. If you can control all those things well enough to be a good shot, you can also control them well enough to be a good husband, father, boss, worker, etc. There is a lot to be said, and a lot said by, a man that is a good shot.

The code? To ride, shoot straight and speak the truth. You latch on to a guy that is comfortable sitting on an animal that can stomp him to death, handle a tool that can instantly kill him with confidence and look you in the eye when he speaks...and you have found GOLD. The rest follows.

Alla is intelligent enough a woman to appreciate that.

[Terry&Tigger 4]

A little development is in order I suppose. Have you ever seen a man that is confident with handling firearms? I can liken them to a man that is very proficient at marshall arts. They really have nothing to fear from pretty much anything, and they are not skeered of the gun because they have mastered it. Slim makes some good descriptions. A man confident in the use of firearms, really good and comfortable with things that can kill you in milliseconds....well that guy is pretty much in control of things around him. Who do you think sets the time I go to meetings for my job? Someone else? You think I wake up early to be somewhere at someone else's beck and call?

How upset do you think I get at daily things? The guy who has a .45 cocked and locked and is comfortable with that tucked into his waistband...well he isn't getting all to upset over the electric bill, solving a problem with immigration, or fixing a broken water line, figuring out how to pay this years tuition for the son in college, etc.

Alla likes a calm personality and a man that is in charge. She likes a "quiet life" and not worrying about things she would rather not worry about, because her man can do that, her man will do that and her man doesn't get all too upset when she does her "stupid girl things".

Is it because I am a good shot? Hmmm, which came first the chicken or the egg? I learned a lot from shooting, patience and trigger control for one thing and that you do not shoot a perfect score in skeet by breaking 25 targets, you shoot a perfect score by breaking 25 targets 1 at a time. You do not accomplish anything worthwhile when you are upset and your mind is not in the game. Shooting is far more a mind and mental game than a physical game. If you cannot control your mind, your concentration your thoughts and actions, you simply cannot be a good shot. If you can control all those things well enough to be a good shot, you can also control them well enough to be a good husband, father, boss, worker, etc. There is a lot to be said, and a lot said by, a man that is a good shot.

The code? To ride, shoot straight and speak the truth. You latch on to a guy that is comfortable sitting on an animal that can stomp him to death, handle a tool that can instantly kill him with confidence and look you in the eye when he speaks...and you have found GOLD. The rest follows.

Alla is intelligent enough a woman to appreciate that.

Okay, I see I have definitely misphrased my question... Let me start by talking some about my own attitude to guns.

I HATE weapons. They kill. And I feel that allowing everyone to buy as many guns as they wish and keep tons of them in their homes is the most irresponsible thing a government could do. It's as if they were saying 'Hey guys, we admit we can not protect you, so go ahead try to do it yourselves', it makes people paranoid. It's what in the end leads to school kids shooting at their classmates etc. Wish you taught your kids guns are dangerous and BAD instead of making them available to everyone and teaching them to shoot. It would give the mankind some hope.

I was asking if any woman really appreciated shooting skills, meaning, do you guys believe women appreciate them so much as to put it onto your list of 'She loves me because...."?? I have read a lot of comments here, like, some FSU woman loves some American man BECAUSE he does not drink etc. FSU women do not love you BECAUSE of something, they love you REGARDLESS something. They love you IN SPITE of things, guys, so forget the lists.

I do not agree that being able to shoot determines how good a father, a husband, a boss you can be. That's too much. If it takes shooting skills to teach some people responsibility and develop their personality enough to be all those, oh well... the nation has serious problems.

Slim,

I do understand that shooting skills, in ADULTS, are cool, if it's something treated as a sport. Being in charge, being focused and calm are cool, all right.

But I fail to understand it when a man keeps 15 pieces of weapon in his house. You wanna protect your family? Keep one. Okay, two, for each hand. WHY fifteen?? What kind of sport is that? It's paranoia.

[Terry&Tigger 4]

I do think it's still true many American women are anti-gun for whatever reasons. My ex wife was very unhappy when I first took my son shooting. I'm not sure about Russian women and guns. My wife has encouraged me to take her shooting and she knows I own a number of firearms and has no issues with it. I know a number of RUB forum men have mentioned they take their wives shooting.

There is one good reason why some women do not like guns.

Women GIVE lives and guns TAKE lives. It's an instinct.

I understand the desire to learn to shoot, though - it's kind of overcoming yourself, feeling in charge of even the sub-conscious part of yourself.

What makes me angry is the bandwagon effect (correct me if I misused this word), when guns are generally available and the whole nation is raised for generations with a gun on a pedestal inside of their minds.

In my observations, here is no such thing in the countries who had REAL wars within their territories. Europe and FSU countries are a lot more careful with weapons because we still have that memory of WWII, somewhere deep inside. Looks like America is still playing games.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Okay, I see I have definitely misphrased my question... Let me start by talking some about my own attitude to guns.

I HATE weapons. They kill. And I feel that allowing everyone to buy as many guns as they wish and keep tons of them in their homes is the most irresponsible thing a government could do. It's as if they were saying 'Hey guys, we admit we can not protect you, so go ahead try to do it yourselves', it makes people paranoid. It's what in the end leads to school kids shooting at their classmates etc. Wish you taught your kids guns are dangerous and BAD instead of making them available to everyone and teaching them to shoot. It would give the mankind some hope.

I was asking if any woman really appreciated shooting skills, meaning, do you guys believe women appreciate them so much as to put it onto your list of 'She loves me because...."?? I have read a lot of comments here, like, some FSU woman loves some American man BECAUSE he does not drink etc. FSU women do not love you BECAUSE of something, they love you REGARDLESS something. They love you IN SPITE of things, guys, so forget the lists.

I do not agree that being able to shoot determines how good a father, a husband, a boss you can be. That's too much. If it takes shooting skills to teach some people responsibility and develop their personality enough to be all those, oh well... the nation has serious problems.

Slim,

I do understand that shooting skills, in ADULTS, are cool, if it's something treated as a sport. Being in charge, being focused and calm are cool, all right.

But I fail to understand it when a man keeps 15 pieces of weapon in his house. You wanna protect your family? Keep one. Okay, two, for each hand. WHY fifteen?? What kind of sport is that? It's paranoia.

OK, my two cents here (about guns). You are entitled to your opinion, and thanks for expressing it in an intelligent and non-offensive way. I disagree with you about the irresponsibillity of the government in ALLOWING us to have guns (saw that one coming right? ) . The government is not allowing us a thing - the constitutional right to keep and bear arms is part of the foundation on which the government bases its legitimacy. The framers intended to allow the populace the ability to defend itself FROM the government - with guns.

And to coin a well-turned cliche', guns don't kill, etc. Personally, I have several handguns, but see absolutely no need to keep a basement full of AK-47s. I also DO NOT want the government telling me that I can't have a basement full if I want to.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Okay, I see I have definitely misphrased my question... Let me start by talking some about my own attitude to guns.

I HATE weapons. They kill. And I feel that allowing everyone to buy as many guns as they wish and keep tons of them in their homes is the most irresponsible thing a government could do. It's as if they were saying 'Hey guys, we admit we can not protect you, so go ahead try to do it yourselves', it makes people paranoid. It's what in the end leads to school kids shooting at their classmates etc. Wish you taught your kids guns are dangerous and BAD instead of making them available to everyone and teaching them to shoot. It would give the mankind some hope.

I was asking if any woman really appreciated shooting skills, meaning, do you guys believe women appreciate them so much as to put it onto your list of 'She loves me because...."?? I have read a lot of comments here, like, some FSU woman loves some American man BECAUSE he does not drink etc. FSU women do not love you BECAUSE of something, they love you REGARDLESS something. They love you IN SPITE of things, guys, so forget the lists.

I do not agree that being able to shoot determines how good a father, a husband, a boss you can be. That's too much. If it takes shooting skills to teach some people responsibility and develop their personality enough to be all those, oh well... the nation has serious problems.

Slim,

I do understand that shooting skills, in ADULTS, are cool, if it's something treated as a sport. Being in charge, being focused and calm are cool, all right.

But I fail to understand it when a man keeps 15 pieces of weapon in his house. You wanna protect your family? Keep one. Okay, two, for each hand. WHY fifteen?? What kind of sport is that? It's paranoia.

I have 15 in my desk. How can one keep house with only 15 guns? Slim, #######? 15? Is it possible to live with only 15?

You are wrong about guns and the abiltiy to keep them. So the rest follows. No country that implemented gun laws has had a reduction in crime. Vermont (as a state) has one of the lowest crime rates on earth. We had, in the entire state, FOUR homocides in 2009. The last year in which a rando killing occured (and it was not with a gun) was 2006. Much lower than UK, Canada,the rest of the US, etc. Yet any person over 18 can carry a loaded handgun concealed. No permit needed. 40 states have concealed carry laws allowing any person not a criminal to get a permit and carry handguns. Two more allow anyone to carry with no Permit, 6 allow with a discretionary permit and ONLY Illinois and Wisconsin do not allow concealed carry of handguns at all. All states that implemented this saw a reduction in crime. ALL. Whatever their crime rates WERE, the crime rates went DOWN when people were allowed to carry guns.

The premise of the United States is, in fact, that it is NOT something the government "allows", it is something We the people force on the government.

I doubt I can change your mind about guns, you are wrong. Alla is not closed minded and does not ignore facts about firearms. She feels safe to walk the streets at night in our city in Vermont, even though any number of people all around her are carrying concealed handguns. It is such a boringly peaceful place (we have to import news items to read in the newspaper) one would never suspect it is an armed camp.

But one of the remarkable things about confident armed people is that they are also polite and civil. Why wouldn't they be?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

There is one good reason why some women do not like guns.

Women GIVE lives and guns TAKE lives. It's an instinct.

I understand the desire to learn to shoot, though - it's kind of overcoming yourself, feeling in charge of even the sub-conscious part of yourself.

What makes me angry is the bandwagon effect (correct me if I misused this word), when guns are generally available and the whole nation is raised for generations with a gun on a pedestal inside of their minds.

In my observations, here is no such thing in the countries who had REAL wars within their territories. Europe and FSU countries are a lot more careful with weapons because we still have that memory of WWII, somewhere deep inside. Looks like America is still playing games.

So why will Alla not walk on the street in Donetsk by herself late at night? She will walk anywhere in Burlington late at night. She parks many blocks from where she teaches a class and walks to her car, I do not worry about it. Why would I? It has been 4 years since there was a random murder anywhere in this state. The last time a police officer died in the line of duty was 1932. He was hit by a car while tending to a traffic accident. Why have two old ladies been assaulted and robbed in our apartment house in the best part of Donetsk in the last year, and beaten in their hallway for paltry sums of money? In the last year NO little old ladies were assaulted anywhere in our state. Armed robbery is virtually unheard of.

The number of firearms one has is not even relevent. Many people collect firearms, I collect Winchesters and Smith & Wesson handguns. I have 4 shotguns just for skeet for myself (you need all four uages for serious competition), 1 for Alla and 3 rifles for hi-power competition. That's 8 right there and that is barely getting started and that is just for me. I have four sons! And yes kids need to shoot also and they need to learn about guns. People do not suddenly becoe competent about firearms when they are 18 or 21, no more so than they can suddenly drive a car when they are 18. Those aren't even collector weapons, those are using guns. Would a coin collector be limited to 8 coins? 15? 80? Heck I need several more handguns just for concealed carry...and don't even try to tell me you get by in life with one purse! I need different handguns for different styles of dress, formal, casual...like I am really going to carry an engraved S&W M19 2.5" with ivory grips while wearing shorts. Give me a break. And when we go to the theatre, the Colt M1903 slides right under my belt and hardly makes ripple in my summer slacks and shirt. How does limiting the guns even make any sense? I can only shoot one!

I have memories of WW2 also. I have memories of the Soviet Union contracting with Westinghouse to make M1891 Moisin-Nagant rifles, the standard Soviet rifle at the start of the war, because they had no domestic manufacturers to turn to as we did. They had no civilian firearms companies to press into service to make rifles for them, so they turned to the US to make theirs. The rifle used by Vasily Zeitsev was made in New Jersey. Our manufacturers simply switched over to military rifles. M1 carbines were made by 11 different small manufacturers, M1 rifles by 3 major ones. Every single one of our domestic arms manufacturers made military firearms for us and our allies including the Soviet Union, Britian, Canada, Australia, France, Belgium. We became the "Arsenal of Democracy" not because of the government but because of the regular, domestic gun makers. Our countries industrial base was anchored by gun makers. Take a drive up I-93 today from New York and you will in quick succession drive past the factories of Colt, S&W, Winchester, Savage Arms, Ruger...they call it "gun valley" The Colt factory has a Big Blue Dome. If you saw it you would say "Look, it is like Moscow" It is. It is, in fact a Russian "onion Dome". Why?

In 1870 Grand Duke Alexis of Russia came to America to select a new revolver for the Russian military. Russia had gun laws and no domestic makers of "modern" revolvers. S&W and Colt were trying for the contract. Colt, ever the marketing genius, constructed a big blue onion dome to impress the Grand Duke. Didn't work, he chose the S&W revolver and S&W made a new cartidge to Russian specifications. The cartridge was the ".44 Russian" which went on to be lengthened and made into the ".44 Magnum" Yes...Dirty Harry's .44 magnum is a direct decendent of the Russian cartidge design!

Winchester tried for decades to sell its lever action repeaters to the US military. No luck. Russia bought them. 267,000 of them to be exact. More than half the total production of the M1895 rifle. The men that mutinied on the Potemkin at Odessa in 1905 were armed with Winchester M1895 rifles made in New haven Connecticut. Chambered for the 7.62x54R Russian cartridge.

I have memories of Hitler visiting Switzerland in 1938. Shortly after walking into the Sudetenland and Austria. He told the Premier "I have 5 million men under arms in my country, how many do you have?" 1 million replied Switzerland. "What will you do if I cross your frontier tomorrow?" The Premier answered..."Each of my men will fire five shots and go home" Switzerland, and Sweden, similarly armed, were never invaded. Hitler went to the Soviet Union instead. Switzerland and Sweden arm their people with the latest machine gun and they are prepared at home to defend against any invader...which has never come.

I have memories of Great Britian requesting donated firearms. I have memories of our National Rifle Association (NRA) collecting hundreds of thousands of donated firearms and sending to Great Britian. They were used to arm the home guard and the people that looked down Hitler from across the meager English Channel were armed with LC Smith Shotguns made in Massachusetts, Winchester M1894s made in New Haven Connecticut, and Remington M11's made in Illion NY. Hitler never came. Oh, he dropped some bombs from up on high but he had not the NADS to crosss that line in the teeth of American guns in the hands of Brits. Not to mention their Mk4 and Pattern 13 Enfield Rifles were made by Remington in Eddystone Pennsylvania. Their standard Mk VII revolver was made by S&W, chambered the .38 S&W cartridge.

I stongly suggest you read the just published 3rd edition of "more Guns...Less Crime" By Professor John Lott of the Univeristy of Chicago. It is an exhaustive study and just updated, on the affects of firearms ownership and crime.

[slim 1,525]

I was asking if any woman really appreciated shooting skills, meaning, do you guys believe women appreciate them so much as to put it onto your list of 'She loves me because...."??

I honestly believe my wife loves me because I'm an excellent marksman. There is no other reason. I'm unemployed, fat, bald and don't do much to give her physical pleasure. It must be because I can shoot. That's about all I've got left!

I do not agree that being able to shoot determines how good a father, a husband, a boss you can be. That's too much. If it takes shooting skills to teach some people responsibility and develop their personality enough to be all those, oh well... the nation has serious problems.

I'd like to first point out that possessing a gun does not mean someone knows how to shoot. Merely knowing how to mechanically operate a firearm is not the same thing as being a marksman. I'll agree with you that being capable of operating a firearm doesn't make someone a better person. That's evidenced every day by our local drug dealers and gang bangers. However, those who've taken the time to learn marksmanship (the actual skill) and who "know how to shoot" become better people because of it.

Then they take it a step further. Somewhere along the way most marksmen understand that firearms and "knowing how to shoot" isn't simple mechanical operation or even mastery of a specific skillset. It's the fundamental freedom that ensures every citizen in our country has liberty. The nation has serious problems not because inanimate mechanical objects are readily available, it has serious problems because more and more of our population is unwilling to bear the fatigue of supporting the cause of liberty. Quite simply put, we've lost our ability to be marksmen!

Slim,

I do understand that shooting skills, in ADULTS, are cool, if it's something treated as a sport. Being in charge, being focused and calm are cool, all right.

But I fail to understand it when a man keeps 15 pieces of weapon in his house. You wanna protect your family? Keep one. Okay, two, for each hand. WHY fifteen?? What kind of sport is that? It's paranoia.

I need 15 because people like you (who don't have any) are going to be more useful using one of mine than throwing rocks. (Ask the Palestinians.)

I get where you're coming from. Guns are OK if used by adults for sporting purposes in a responsible way. There's no other reason to have them. Your beliefs are shared my many, even right here in the U.S. But, a few who did not share those beliefs were John Adams, John Hancock, Sam Adams, Paul Revere, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, George Washington, and the list goes on and on. You can add my name to that list as well as Gary's, Brad's, VV's, and many others here on this RUB Forum. You're not adding our names because we like to go duck hunting and think we should never lose that right, you're adding our names because we will never be forced to live under the tyranny of an oppressive government or stand idly by while our country is forcibly occupied by foreign invaders.

Most of the rest of the world, while being involved in "real wars" hasn't been able to defend themselves without American guns (and a whole bunch of men) coming to help. While I'm not claiming America won the wars or without us the world would've lost, what I'm saying is there's a trend of when, where and who fought in these "real wars" and without fail, they were fought in places without an armed populace.

America didn't have an invader in WWII. Yes, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor (which was not yet "America") but when they were considering invading our west coast, they stopped short because "behind every blade of grass there was a man with a rifle."

Don't think an armed populace deters foreign invaders?

Ask your comrades who went to Afghanistan. Ask ours who are there now. Consider why we never did more to aid Somalia. Why haven't we tried to help Darfur by sending troops instead of having kids on MTV buy bracelets?

Men on the ground with rifles is the single most effective deterent to tyranny and/or invasion. That's why we have guns in America. Not to go duck hunting.

There is one good reason why some women do not like guns. Women GIVE lives and guns TAKE lives. It's an instinct.

That is simply not true. Guns don't take lives any more than tea kettles take lives. It is physically impossible for an inanimate metal object to do anything without the input of a human.

And there is no instinct for women to fear guns. The only way to develop an aversion to a man-made inanimate metal object is to be taught to fear it. That does not make it an instinct, that makes it a learned behavior. Some women may have a reason why they do not like guns but it's not a good reason. Nor is it an instinct. It's ignorance, actually.

I understand the desire to learn to shoot, though - it's kind of overcoming yourself, feeling in charge of even the sub-conscious part of yourself.

If you're referring to that in the same was as Gary of "controlling something that can kill you" then maybe, I guess. For me, that was never a part of my quest to become a great marksman. I don't want to shoot guns so I have the power to kill someone yet restrain myself from doing it. I want to shoot guns so I can support the cause of liberty. - And then go duck hunting.

What makes me angry is the bandwagon effect (correct me if I misused this word),

It should make you angry! For the record, you used the word correctly but you misinterpret the side of the bandwagon you're on. This bandwagon effect that you speak of is not based in truth or reality. You're posting your personal views that aren't formed in first-hand experience or knowledge. You're views are based on the general consensus of the bandwagon and for whatever reason, you've been led to believe guns are "bad" yet you have no real first-hand experience in dealing with them.

Funny how most of the bandwagon feels the same way.

when guns are generally available and the whole nation is raised for generations with a gun on a pedestal inside of their minds.

The problem is that pedestal inside their minds isn't based in reality, it's based in Hollywood or on BET. For many years we had the pedestal based in their minds and much of the U.S. was like Vermont where the majority of the citizenry was armed yet crime was almost non-existent. Now, we have a minority of the populace armed and crime is rampant.

Did that happen because guns became more readily available? No. It happened because the people who possess the guns have changed. The bandwagon has led the average American astray. It's not the inanimate metal objects that are evil. The evil lies inside of human beings who make conscious choices. Reality is inanimate metal objects still can't make choices. Never could. Probably never will.

In my observations, here is no such thing in the countries who had REAL wars within their territories. Europe and FSU countries are a lot more careful with weapons because we still have that memory of WWII, somewhere deep inside. Looks like America is still playing games.

So let me get this straight.... you're saying a country that's allowed it's citizens to privately own firearms since 1776 and has since had ONE foreign invader attack in a short-lived conflict is playing games yet all those countries in Europe - most of which have been either at war in one form or another or invaded by a foreign army at huge cost to human life - are taking it more seriously?

By your argument, shouldn't Europe and FSU be more secure than America? I mean, if the government can protect it's people and the citizens have no guns, shouldn't they be more safe than all those crazy Americans with their 15 guns in their homes?

I believe you just shot yourself in the foot.