God

[Captain Oates 911]

I'm just curious. If you are so intent on keeping or protecting your British citizenship, why are you seeking naturalization in the US? I for one find some, if not most of your witless banter offensive as an American citizen. Yes we talk smack about our president, and about idotic American policies, but we have the right to do so under the First Ammendment because we are US citizens, you haven't even been ALLOWED the privelege to obtain that right yet. Being a US citizen is not a right, it's a privelege, and I think using a public forum, which is hosted, and whose membership consists of 90% US Citizens as a way to mock our procedures and policies is testament to the type of "Americans" you will be.

Never mentioned protecting my UK citizenship ! This post isn't about that.

Excuse me but I think perhaps your resentment is based on a religious thing you have ? I am entitled to be unreligious both now and when I become a citizen, and I am simply asking about the procedure at the ceremony.

Keeping atheists out of the country is no part of the constitution - I have learned that much from the 100 questions.

Anyway it's too late for you - Bill Maher is already here.

I tend to be light hearted in the way I express myself and I belief that this is also an inalienable right although it isn't written down anywhere yet.

I repeat that I am not interested in discussing serving in the military or religious views or anything else - it's a fact finding exercise about the ceremony

There will be many Americans who will welcome me into the country and tolerant enough to rub shoulders with people of any religion or none. That is why the country was set up.

I like your President who has Yorkshire roots like me. I like his government. I like their policies. It sounds like I am more supportive of the American president and government and policies than you are. Perhaps you don't belong any more ?

Anyway, let's keep it factual and not get side tracked

[VanessaTony 3,567]

I'm just curious. If you are so intent on keeping or protecting your British citizenship, why are you seeking naturalization in the US? I for one find some, if not most of your witless banter offensive as an American citizen. Yes we talk smack about our president, and about idotic American policies, but we have the right to do so under the First Ammendment because we are US citizens, you haven't even been ALLOWED the privelege to obtain that right yet. Being a US citizen is not a right, it's a privelege, and I think using a public forum, which is hosted, and whose membership consists of 90% US Citizens as a way to mock our procedures and policies is testament to the type of "Americans" you will be.

Actually it was me who first bought this up.. though it was Australian citizenship AND British.

I don't understand how you could take some of the conversations here as "offensive" to your US citizen sensibilities. I find it strange that you tell us that being a non-USC (at the moment) doesn't give us the right to say the US policies etc suck... that's a bit ... idiotic to be honest. It's like you telling me you DON'T complain at all about the UK, or Australia or ANY OTHER country or it's policies, or lament at how bad some countries are (like after watching "Slumdog Millionaire" and seeing how some people live) because it is not your right as a non-citizen of that country. No-one in THIS thread was US bashing... I want to become a USC to make life with my husband so much easier. He also plans to obtain Aussie citizenship for the same reason. It just makes sense if you married an international person so that you can live with her family without needing a visa, or vice-versa. That doesn't mean that neither my husband nor myself think any less of the respective countries, or their policies, but like the "do I have to like or love the US" thread says, we don't have to be madly and passionately in love with the country to seek citizenship, but I do think not hating it is a good idea.

And honestly, I am not religious, I find the idea that I HAVE to use the word God in legal ceremonies (such as this and getting married) offensive. Surely people understand by now "freedom of religion". I shouldn't have it shoved down my throat and as the OP said, I shouldn't have to PROVE I'm not religious but if I do, I'll simply get Affidavits from my family members and friends who can attest that I am definitely, 100% not into "God". That said, I do like someone else's idea about putting an "S" at the end a good idea.

As a side note, are you SURE that 90% here are USC's? From my own experiences the majority of posters are internationals. Sure there are some USCs, maybe 50%, maybe more... but I think to say 90% is a bit of a stretch.

OP - I've tried to find something about it. Found these:

- http://press.abc-directory.com/press/2387 - Guy (who believes Aliens bought us here... not in God) successfully stopped ALL God references in 2007

- http://www.***removed***/citizenship/naturalization-oath-ceremony.html - there is a section on what can be amended in the Oath.. this is what you're referring to I believe "If USCIS finds that you are unable to swear the Oath using the words "on oath," you may replace these words with "and solemnly affirm." Finally, if USCIS finds that you are unable to use the words "so help me God" because of your religious training or beliefs, you are not required to say these words.

- http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=603697 - thread about guy wanting to do the same as you which links to the next site...

- http://www.kkeane.info/naturalization-oath-and-religion.html - Guy explains what he wanted changed (the same parts you do) and how he did it successfully... side note.. he changed his name and I can see why :S

I hope that helps you.

Good luck! And please post back so the rest of us (me included) know what to expect when it comes to our turn.

**Edited to add a forgotten (but important) link

Edited May 13, 2010 by Vanessa&Tony

[Captain Oates 911]

My god it's a good job I wasn't talking religion..just the ceremony

I would like to defend Philipanawife2010 as the majority of American citizens believe that aliens have no rights. I think this comes from people entering on visa waiver etc where you actually sign that you waive your rights to appeal against deportation.

Washington State had a law that aliens could not own guns and I was part of the lobbying against that. Me and the NRA and a billion others got the Washington Supreme Court to drop that in July 2008 as the 14th amendment says that everyone has the same rights under the Constitution. It was meant to make non citizens such as black people, equal - but had the side effect of authorising my Glock and my 1943 Lee Enfield made in Maltby, Yorkshire.

Anyway, about this ceremony thing....

[antoneya 9]

One of the things I like but this country it the 1st Amendment and with that we all know you have the right to freedom of religion. So if you choose to not say the words “So help me God” than you don’t have too and no one is going to come after you for it or try to take away you citizenship. Simply tell the officer that you interview with that you will not be saying the word “God” during your oath due to your religious beliefs.

No, there are not going to give you a special card to read the oath from and they are not going to let you take the oath in another room or something because you are not going to say god. You just repeat what they say and when they say God you don’t say anything. It is up to you to make sure when they are going to say God and to make sure that you don’t say it by accident.

As for the other parts of the Oath, I would think long and hard before you take the Oath if you are NOT going to stand by what you are saying. If you don’t want to say God and then you don’t have to, if you don’t want to fight then you don’t have to, but you do have to do non-combatant duties if and when required. However if you are going to renounce your citizenship when it becomes convenient for you, than YOU SHOULD NOT BE TAKING THE OATH.

[Captain Oates 911]

One of the things I like but this country it the 1st Amendment and with that we all know you have the right to freedom of religion. So if you choose to not say the words So help me God than you dont have too and no one is going to come after you for it or try to take away you citizenship. Simply tell the officer that you interview with that you will not be saying the word God during your oath due to your religious beliefs.

No, there are not going to give you a special card to read the oath from and they are not going to let you take the oath in another room or something because you are not going to say god. You just repeat what they say and when they say God you dont say anything. It is up to you to make sure when they are going to say God and to make sure that you dont say it by accident.

As for the other parts of the Oath, I would think long and hard before you take the Oath if you are NOT going to stand by what you are saying. If you dont want to say God and then you dont have to, if you dont want to fight then you dont have to, but you do have to do non-combatant duties if and when required. However if you are going to renounce your citizenship when it becomes convenient for you, than YOU SHOULD NOT BE TAKING THE OATH.

Interesting viewpoint. I don't mind fighting for the U.S. (In the gimmer corps)- I could even guide an assassination drone over Pakistan - that would be fun cos I used to have a model aeroplane and it doesn't sound dangerous (to me)

Many men and women get married and take an oath which is forever. They then change their mind and get a divorce. Many people in that position refuse to break their oath and don't get a new partner until the divorce is final.

I equate marriage and citizenship as far as keeping the oath until freed from it.

Nobody gets married thinking they will divorce. Nobody gets citizenship thinking they will have to renounce it.

Convenience should not be confused with principle and I am sure David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) would renounce his British Citizenship if the UK carried out a sneak attack on the U.S. - and quite rightly too. I would do the same if I were a US Citizen living as a British Citizen in the UK.

These matters need to be thought out by putting oneself in other people's positions, but that is an ability that only comes with age if at all.

Anyway I think I have my info - 300 people mumbling away and most of em can only write 3 sentences in English. I simply don't refer to God and nobody will notice. If it's like that then that's ok. If I get an officer who lip reads, I will tell him I was speaking in tongues.

Edited May 13, 2010 by saywhat

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Nothing substantive to add but -- ALAN!!! We miss you in the UK forum -- we were just talking in the 2005-07 filers thread about how your discussions of duvets and kettles are much missed. From a godless woman married to an atheist Yorkshireman, I salute you in your quest to become a USC sans references to divinity, and in riling up those who deserve it.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

I'm just curious. If you are so intent on keeping or protecting your British citizenship, why are you seeking naturalization in the US? I for one find some, if not most of your witless banter offensive as an American citizen. Yes we talk smack about our president, and about idotic American policies, but we have the right to do so under the First Ammendment because we are US citizens, you haven't even been ALLOWED the privelege to obtain that right yet. Being a US citizen is not a right, it's a privelege, and I think using a public forum, which is hosted, and whose membership consists of 90% US Citizens as a way to mock our procedures and policies is testament to the type of "Americans" you will be.

Being a US citizen is pretty much an accident of nature for most of us.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

I for one find some, if not most of your witless banter offensive as an American citizen. Yes we talk smack about our president, and about idotic American policies, but we have the right to do so under the First Ammendment because we are US citizens, you haven't even been ALLOWED the privelege to obtain that right yet. Being a US citizen is not a right, it's a privelege, and I think using a public forum, which is hosted, and whose membership consists of 90% US Citizens as a way to mock our procedures and policies is testament to the type of "Americans" you will be.

As far as I know, this forum is hosted offshore for legal reasons. I'd also like to know where you got your figure that 90% of VJers are Americans. Furthermore, you are aware that First Amendment rights are extended to non-citizens in America, no?

I for one find Alan's banter witty; I would have an easier time reading statements from those who say otherwise if they were spelled and punctuated more precisely.

[HannahP 119]

I'm just curious. If you are so intent on keeping or protecting your British citizenship, why are you seeking naturalization in the US? I for one find some, if not most of your witless banter offensive as an American citizen. Yes we talk smack about our president, and about idotic American policies, but we have the right to do so under the First Ammendment because we are US citizens, you haven't even been ALLOWED the privelege to obtain that right yet. Being a US citizen is not a right, it's a privelege, and I think using a public forum, which is hosted, and whose membership consists of 90% US Citizens as a way to mock our procedures and policies is testament to the type of "Americans" you will be.

Bill of Rights applies to non-citizens as well. Didn't you pay attention in Government class? (Jeez, what kind of American are you? )

Edited May 13, 2010 by HannahP

[Nik+Heather 121]

Bill of Rights applies to non-citizens as well. Didn't you pay attention in Government class? (Jeez, what kind of American are you? )

The REAL Americans sleep through that one! Or, like in my HS, it was a self-study class over the summer, and everyone had the answers for the multiple choice test which never changed from year to year.

[Captain Oates 911]

Nothing substantive to add but -- ALAN!!! We miss you in the UK forum -- we were just talking in the 2005-07 filers thread about how your discussions of duvets and kettles are much missed. From a godless woman married to an atheist Yorkshireman, I salute you in your quest to become a USC sans references to divinity, and in riling up those who deserve it.

Dear Elmcity - bet you can't believe I am still here and batting !

Actually, in my delusional way I think I will be an asset to the U.S. as I very gently suggest a few concepts that they won't meet on a day to day basis - and having one's thought glands stimulated can never be a bad thing. My wife says I should call myself a rationalist or something before I get lynched - but I am hoping that staying out of the South should keep my hide intact. What caliber gun would Jesus use on me ? He was into red wine and free health care according to need - like me - so I think we would have hit it off.

This was a discussion on a very simple factual thing but because politics and religion were on the margin, they inevitably made their appearance, so it took longer to get the answer

Actually, when I was 19 and in the Police Force, I used to affirm when I gave evidence. It was a brand new experience for the court. Their worships actually tended to believe me more as a man of conscience, rather than those officers who were quite happy to swear to god and then stretch the truth (lie)(fit em up)

Trouble in the US is that everyone has their politics/religion packaged for them. Atheists must be pacifists and vote democrat etc etc. Here is me just as willing to kill people for the US as any good Christian, and I am a member of a gun club in a 100% extreme Republican area and I have 4 rifles and 3 pistols ! In other words I beat my own path through life and I don't ask to be supplied with an identikit set for my politics/religion. A stubborn independant individualist who carries his ethics with him and doesn't have em handed to him by those in authority - in other words - what a good American is supposed to be.

I am pretty happy in the US now - I like the constitution, El Presidente, and I like the government and the taxes are fair.

I have a lot of evangelizing to do before the other 300 million think like me, but apart from that, the 8 inches rain per annum compares well to Darwen Lancashire, (our last stop in the UK from which we are emotionally scarred)

Actually there is so much of the US that reminds me of Britain in the 50's. At school we were taught that all those red patches on the globe were given to us by god under the stewardship of her majesty. She spoke directly with god every day (after tea) and acted as some kind of CEO for his organization on earth. She had literally been chosen and placed there by god. We were told that Britain was the finest country that had ever existed in the history of the world, (sounds like mitt romney) and that we lived in the finest County (Yorkshire) in the finest Country, England, as part of the finest Nationality (British) and that white people were infinitely superior to all others - the others were indolent because it was so warm where they lived and they couldn't be bothered working ! It's hard to believe, but we were taught VERY racist sea shanties in music class by an elderly spinster music teacher. If I sang them in a pub now I would be jailed and I would deserve it

ok they don't do racism in American schools, but much of the 'we are the chosen ones' is the same as Britain in the 50's and look where it got them.

Then I went to 'Primitive Methodist' chapel and boy were they primitive - they hauled me out at age 9 and made me foreswear strong liquour and easy women. I did of course, but I broke that oath too (eventually, not at 9). No hope for me in the fiery pit, but at least it doesn't rain there.

Anyway, all this stuff belongs in the other chat forum so I will sign off now - on the side and satified - VJ is a magic place with super members - love it

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Oh Alan, you've touched my little heart. Wish you were around more.

[NickD 202]

I don't think that is so Nick - I know you need written stuff from your church/religious teacher etc to get out of the army stuff - but for simply wanting to delete 'god' in the oath, I don't see any requirement to 'prove' I am an atheist - How would I do that anyway? Atheists don't have a church to certify that they don't believe in god... I could send em a you tube link of my teacher on religious issues - Mr Bill Maher...

Imagine - 'we require you to prove you don't believe in god'

No, affirmation is available on demand (or civilized and affable request if you are English)- but it's the mechanics of how that works at the service - oops I mean ceremony, that I am interested in.

Should have distinguished between combative or non-combative service to this country from just saying "So help me God", at the end of the oath. Latter can be requested not to say. Suppose you can say something like "I cross my heart and hope to die if I told a lie."

And who is God anyway? With my experience with the USCIS, believe they think they are God, but that phrase "So HELP me God" really doesn't fit in, because you don't get HELP from the USCIS.

This nation is based on an Almighty, God, or Creator, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights" but also introduced for the first time, the notion of separation of religion from state. But at least we are not taxed to pay for a religion, or are we?

In a town with a population of just 19,000, we have over 60 churches and most are quite a bit more than a church, more like a country club, the newest trend with multi-million dollar complexes. This is fine with me, expect all these new churches and even our huge hospital are exempt from paying property taxes, meaning the businesses and residents have to pick up the tab. That is an additional tax. Surprised those idiots from Madison that come up here to b!tch about anything religious in public places haven't made an issue of this. Christmas day, which you are not allowed to say anymore is a legal holiday imposed by congress. Really don't have to think about Jesus as a god, but as a philosopher that established the ground work for our constitution, but any mention of him is banned by these idiots.

True separation from religion from state, is that we are not paying for these institutions, who gives a damn if a court house has a plaque with the Ten Commandments, those commandments are the basis of our government. Maybe 30 years ago when our hospital was charging 20 bucks for an ER visit, could be considered a charitable institution, cut my hand a couple of months ago, and for a couple of stitches, bill came to 830 bucks! Against our law for me to buy anesthetics so I could stitch my hand myself, not exactly Rambo. Same hospital was charging 30 bucks a night for a room 30 years ago, today that same room is costing 3,000! That is not charity, feel they should be paying property taxes like anyone else, as well as these country club type of churches.

Taking an oath is a legal requirement that can be used against you if you broke it for any reason, if they want "So help me God", in the legal sense you are taking this oath seriously, so what? Its a legal more than a religious requirement.

I sure question that oath I was forced to take to die for my country when I was drafted at the ripe old age of 18. First off, back then, I wasn't even of legal age and considered a minor. Second, if I didn't say that oath, would have been tossed in jail! How legal is that? An oath should be taken of ones' own free will

In reality shouldn't be an oath at all, but a contract with the US government, and every element of that contract should be an equal exchange between you and that government. If you pay taxes, should get something in return for those taxes as one example. But if you read the USCIS oath in proper context, its just you that is doing all the giving.

We did get something for my wife saying the oath as it was written, freedom from the USCIS and also that I-864 contract and that alone was saying the oath for, so we could live our lives together in peace without constant threats from them.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

Oh Alan, you've touched my little heart. Wish you were around more.

I couldn't agree more.

[NickD 202]

If god is the issue here, here is one definition of god.

"god (g¼d) n. 1. God.a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions. b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being. c. Christian Science. “Infinite Mind; Spirit; Soul; Principle; Life; Truth; Love” (Mary Baker Eddy). 2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality. 3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol. 4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: money was their god. 5. A very handsome man. 6. A powerful ruler or despot."

Ha, I am a very handsome man, but don't consider myself a god, more like a slave. Especially at tax time.

Can say, so help me god, but think in terms of, so help me money. Money does speak very well at the USCIS.

Just saying you don't have to connect the word, "god" with any particular religion. Feel it is safe to consider the USCIS as your god, they do have absolute power over you and your life, so help me, God!