Obama policy shift - one more step towards ending the war on drugs

[Heracles 417]

I said "among our largest".

According to the Census Bureau, Mexico is our 3rd largest trading partner for the month of February 2010. Canada and China are #1 and #2, respectively.

You got me. I am such a liar.

Naaaah. I retrieved my data from the WTO and based it on exports from the US. Imports to America do nothing for the Economy.

Here are the Exports:

http://stat.wto.org/CountryProfile/WSDBCountryPFView.aspx?Language=E&Country=US

By main destination

1. European Union (27) 21.2

2. Canada 20.1

3. Mexico 11.7

4. China 5.5

5. Japan 5.1

Edited May 12, 2010 by Booyah!

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Locking up addicts is definitely pointless. Going after and locking up drug dealers is what should happen. Once caught, everything they own should be confiscated and sold period. Any big-time dealer should be given the death penalty. Though, I would agree that weed should be legal for adults.

The war is not what failed, it's how it's fought that has failed. The war was never fought properly to be lost. It was smoke and mirrors. You mention resources but how much has really been allocated? Was the military used? Did the US threaten these big drug dealers abroad? Sure had no problem invading two countries but for some reason shake at the knees over Latin America; where the majority of narcotics come from.

You won't defeat drugs. Period. Let's take a look at history. Prohibition ring a bell? What happened as a result of making the production and distribution of alcohol illegal? You got it. It went underground and created cartels, crime and violence. Did people stop drinking? Not really. They either paid huge for the alcohol on the black market or they made their own - often the blinding stuff. So, the prohibition was repealed. People drink whether you allow it or not. There are still plenty of "dry" counties in this nation. Do people in dry counties consume less alcohol? I think not.

What happened as a result of making cocaine and other drugs illegal? Yes, cartels, crime and violence. Oh, and crack cocaine and meth came up. And people started getting high on glue, paint thinners and any other substances that do the trick. All just cheaper to be had but much, much more devastating than the natural originals. See the parallels?

We accept that people smoke and drink knowing that each of these habits or addictions claim hundreds of thousands of lives each year. We even allow the tobacco industry to chemically enhance their products to make them more effective - read: more addictive. Why are we tolerant of some drugs (well, we know we can't fight them and win) but pretend to be able to win a war against the others? People that want to get high, will find a way to get high. The sensible thing to do is to bring the substances out of the shadow, which will 1) defund the cartels, 2) reduce crime that results from the high price of the addicition, 3) enable us to treat addiction for those that want to rid themselves of it (much like we support and sponsor alcohol and tobacco addicts that want to break the habit) and 4) create an income stream to fund number 3. It's a win all around.

[Heracles 417]

The prohibition argument is weak and tired. As I have pointed out many many times before, the issues here is with the system and attitude towards alw enforcement. You won't find ACLUs running around defending criminals rights in AUS, that's for sure. Perhaps we should legalize murder too, since it is worse per capita than every other first world country.

Most who want to legalize hard drugs ignore the consequences of doing so. Why not go volunteer to deal with addicts? Go to an emergency room and see people that have od. Like anything, it's all good and well to sit back from the comfort of one's home and say allowing more of the stuff is the way to go. Having to deal with this yourself and in person is something else. After all, it's no different to those groups that defend criminals rights. Many of whom are usually living in nice crime free neighborhoods.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Booyah!

[john & jean 37]

he is counting on druggies and illegals for reelection

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The prohibition argument is weak and tired.

Why is that? Because you can't deny the parallels and because you can't refute it?

Most who want to legalize criminalize hard drugs ignore the consequences of doing so.

There you go. Something for you to chew on. Crack, Meth. Take your pick and tell me how either of these is helping anything. Without doubt, both are a direct product of criminalizing hard but much less devastating drugs. Much like homemade alcohol - often deadly methanol - was a direct result of the prohibition.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

he is counting on druggies and illegals for reelection

Yeah, I'm sure that's it. What an intelligent contribution. Wow.

ETA: Does your comment mean that he's got your vote now?

Edited May 12, 2010 by Mr. Big Dog

[Heracles 417]

Why is that? Because you can't deny the parallels and because you can't refute it?

Wrong era, different policing methods and so forth. Common sense really. Otherwise why not bring up something used during the Pilgrim days too.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Wrong era, different policing methods and so forth.

That's it? That's all you got? Talk about weak...

[Heracles 417]

That's it? That's all you got? Talk about weak...

hehe. Nah, that's all I can be bothered for now. Too many topics to discuss and get our head around.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

hehe. Nah, that's all I can be bothered for now. Too many topics to discuss and get our head around.

Alright, so let's have a bit of a chat on the other issue you raised earlier - the tough Aussie enforcement and how well it works. Turns out that illicit drug use is much more prevalent down under than it is here in the US, let alone in liberal Western Europe.

Amphetamines:

AU - 4.0%

US - 1.1%

DE - 0.6%

NL - 0.7%

Cannabis:

AU: - 15%

US: - 9.3%

DE: - 6%

NL: - 5.6%

Cocaine:

US: - 2.6%

AU: - 1.5%

DE: - 0.9%

NL: - 1.2%

Opiates:

AU: - 0.6%

US: - 0.6%

DE: - 0.3%

NL: - 0.3%

Ecstasy:

AU: - 3.4%

US: - 1.4%

DE: - 0.6%

NL: - 0.8%

Trouble in paradise, bro? Maybe it's the Aussie cops that ought to take a few lessons here in the US or, better yet, in Western Europe. Or maybe the more liberal policies in Western Europe are working in reducing the prevalence of illicit drug abuse. The numbers speak volumes. Australia takes the top spot overall in illicit drug abuse and you want to play teacher in terms of how to effectively fight this nonsense war on drugs? Get real, man.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

The prohibition argument is weak and tired. As I have pointed out many many times before, the issues here is with the system and attitude towards alw enforcement. You won't find ACLUs running around defending criminals rights in AUS, that's for sure. Perhaps we should legalize murder too, since it is worse per capita than every other first world country.

Most who want to legalize hard drugs ignore the consequences of doing so. Why not go volunteer to deal with addicts? Go to an emergency room and see people that have od. Like anything, it's all good and well to sit back from the comfort of one's home and say allowing more of the stuff is the way to go. Having to deal with this yourself and in person is something else. After all, it's no different to those groups that defend criminals rights. Many of whom are usually living in nice crime free neighborhoods.

Open mouth, insert foot...

International comparisons

The data presented in the following table relate to the use of marijuana/cannabis,

amphetamine, ecstasy, cocaine and opiates, and summarise and update collated data by the

United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC). Only data relating to Englishspeaking

countries are presented here. The countries use various types of population

surveys and other data collection methods. Although these methods are broadly consistent,

comparisons should be treated with caution. For more details on the methods and sources,

readers are referred to the UNODC publication (UNODC 2006).

The levels and patterns of illicit drug use in the selected English-speaking countries vary

considerably (Table 4.3). Marijuana/cannabis use in the last 12 months was most prevalent

in Canada (17%), and least prevalent in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland (5%).

Ecstasy and amphetamine use was most prevalent in Australia (4%). Cocaine use was most

common in the USA (3%).

Table 4.3: [a must see]

Source: http://www.aihw.gov.au/publications/phe/soduia06/soduia06.pdf

[Heracles 417]

Alright, so let's have a bit of a chat on the other issue you raised earlier - the tough Aussie enforcement and how well it works. Turns out that illicit drug use is much more prevalent down under than it is here in the US, let alone in liberal Western Europe.

Trouble in paradise, bro? Maybe it's the Aussie cops that ought to take a few lessons here in the US or, better yet, in Western Europe. Or maybe the more liberal policies in Western Europe are working in reducing the prevalence of illicit drug abuse. The numbers speak volumes. Australia takes the top spot overall in illicit drug abuse and you want to play teacher in terms of how to effectively fight this nonsense war on drugs? Get real, man.

I find that very hard to believe considering they are an island with strict quarantine. Getting the drugs there is almost impossible.

What's almost as interesting are the US stats. Considering the following:

Your figures do not match.

Source: DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES - USA

Edited May 12, 2010 by Booyah!

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I find that very hard to believe considering they are an island with strict quarantine. Getting the drugs there is almost impossible.

What's almost as interesting are the US stats. Considering the following:

Your figures do not match.

Source: DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES - USA

What does this graph show, exactly?

Also, the numbers I quote were complied by UNODC based on the reprots from the respective governments. The post following mine has the Aussie gov't report which mirrors the numbers I quoted just fine. Give or take a fraction of a percentage point which is due to the numbers I quoted being from 2000/2001 while the other stats are from 2006. Either way, Aussies are junkies despite the "strict quarantine" on the island. Interesting, though, that synthetic drugs (aside from the impressive Cannabis use) are much more prevalent in Australia than elsewhere. Your quarantine might explain that - those suckers are produced on the island. Which goes back to my point that prohibition will result in work-arounds - i.e. synthetic drugs. The proof is in the pudding.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Mr. Big Dog

[Heracles 417]

What does this graph show, exactly?

Illicit drug use based on age.

[Heracles 417]

Open mouth, insert foot...

Damn straight, so I hope you are ready for it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/01/health/webmd/main4222322.shtml

U.S. Leads The World In Illegal Drug Use

July 1, 2008

(WebMD) Despite tough anti-drug laws, a new survey shows the U.S. has the highest level of illegal drug use in the world.

The World Health Organization's survey of legal and illegal drug use in 17 countries, including the Netherlands and other countries with less stringent drug laws, shows Americans report the highest level of cocaine and marijuana use.

For example, Americans were four times more likely to report using cocaine in their lifetime than the next closest country, New Zealand (16% vs. 4%),

Marijuana use was more widely reported worldwide, and the U.S. also had the highest rate of use at 42.4% compared with 41.9% of New Zealanders.

In contrast, in the Netherlands, which has more liberal drug policies than the U.S., only 1.9% of people reported cocaine use and 19.8% reported marijuana use.

Ignore the following BS..

"Globally, drug use is not distributed evenly and is not simply related to drug policy, since countries with stringent user-level illegal drug policies did not have lower levels of use than countries with liberal ones," researcher Louisa Degenhardt of the University of New South Wales, Australia, and colleagues write in PLoS Medicine.

U.S. Leads Drug Use

In the study, researchers surveyed more than 54,000 adults in the Americas (Colombia, Mexico, and the United States), Europe (Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Ukraine), Middle East and Africa (Israel, Lebanon, Nigeria, South Africa), Asia, (Japan, China) and Oceania (New Zealand).

The survey included questions about legalized drug use, such as alcohol and tobacco, and illegal drug use, including cocaine and marijuana, during the participant's lifetime.

Overall, alcohol had been used by most of those surveyed in the Americas, Europe, Japan, and New Zealand compared with much smaller proportions in the Middle East, Africa, and China.

Tobacco use was also most common in the U.S. (74%), followed by Lebanon (67%) and Mexico (60%).

Researchers found gender and socioeconomic differences in both legal and illegal drug use. For example, men were more likely than women to have used legal and illegal drugs, and younger adults were more likely than older adults to have used drugs of all kinds.

Single adults were more likely than married adults to report tobacco, marijuana, and cocaine use but not alcohol use. People with higher incomes were also more likely to use both legal and illegal drugs.

"The use of drugs seems to be a feature of more affluent countries. The U.S., which has been driving much of the world's drug research and drug policy agenda, stands out with higher levels of use of alcohol, cocaine, and cannabis, despite punitive illegal drug policies, as well as (in many U.S. states), a higher minimum legal alcohol drinking age than many comparable developed countries," write the researchers.