what we still don't understand

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What 'profound' insights do you think you have into terrorism that the majority of the rest of us don't share?

I don't have any sympathy for those who carry out these atrocities, but I don't think its reasonable to consider that it somehow exists in some sort of ideological vaccuum, or that the people who do it are intrinsically evil.

Aside from that I'm not sure exactly what 'outrage' you want me to have. Screaming, tearing of hair and frothing at the mouth isn't what I consider to be particularly useful. Neither is focussing on individual atrocities as though they take place without any historical precedent or political context. That's far from agreeing or having 'sympathy' with such people - as much as it is about adopting a larger world view.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

What 'profound' insights do you think you have into terrorism that the majority of the rest of us don't share?

I don't have any sympathy for those who carry out these atrocities, but I don't think its reasonable to consider that it somehow exists in some sort of ideological vaccuum, or that the people who do it are intrinsically evil.

Aside from that I'm not sure exactly what 'outrage' you want me to have. Screaming, tearing of hair and frothing at the mouth isn't what I consider to be particularly useful. Neither is focussing on individual atrocities as though they take place without any historical precedent or political context. That's far from agreeing or having 'sympathy' with such people - as much as it is about adopting a larger world view.

Acknowledging that there is a problem is the first step.

Here's my problem... people say "that terrorist act is bad" the response from Muslims is "you're a racist. Quit bashing Muslims" #######??? instead of saying "You're right. That terrorist act is bad". It only makes them look bad.

[Jenn! 918]

What 'profound' insights do you think you have into terrorism that the majority of the rest of us don't share?

I don't have any sympathy for those who carry out these atrocities, but I don't think its reasonable to consider that it somehow exists in some sort of ideological vaccuum, or that the people who do it are intrinsically evil.

Aside from that I'm not sure exactly what 'outrage' you want me to have. Screaming, tearing of hair and frothing at the mouth isn't what I consider to be particularly useful. Neither is focussing on individual atrocities as though they take place without any historical precedent or political context. That's far from agreeing or having 'sympathy' with such people - as much as it is about adopting a larger world view.

Acknowledging that there is a problem is the first step.

Here's my problem... people say "that terrorist act is bad" the response from Muslims is "you're a racist. Quit bashing Muslims" #######??? instead of saying "You're right. That terrorist act is bad". It only makes them look bad.

In my memory that reaction comes as a response to statements like, "That terrorist act is bad. Therefore clearly Islam is not a religion of peace."

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What 'profound' insights do you think you have into terrorism that the majority of the rest of us don't share?

I don't have any sympathy for those who carry out these atrocities, but I don't think its reasonable to consider that it somehow exists in some sort of ideological vaccuum, or that the people who do it are intrinsically evil.

Aside from that I'm not sure exactly what 'outrage' you want me to have. Screaming, tearing of hair and frothing at the mouth isn't what I consider to be particularly useful. Neither is focussing on individual atrocities as though they take place without any historical precedent or political context. That's far from agreeing or having 'sympathy' with such people - as much as it is about adopting a larger world view.

Acknowledging that there is a problem is the first step.

Here's my problem... people say "that terrorist act is bad" the response from Muslims is "you're a racist. Quit bashing Muslims" #######??? instead of saying "You're right. That terrorist act is bad". It only makes them look bad.

That's not exactly accurate is it? What people are doing is seizing on each new atrocity as a means of validating preconceived racial stereotypes, and in doing so, rubbishing an ancient culture, and a belief system shared by over 1 billion people. That's what I object to.

Again its an example of how complex problems are being sloganised - which is a means to boil them down into simplistic explanations to prevent further scrutiny. I seem to remember you making a similar comment about blacks filling the nations prisons. While I won't disagree about the numbers, I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the reason blacks are in jail has anything whatsoever to do with race, as much as socio-economic and educational factors. That is the essence of racialism.

Similarly, some people think that the word 'terrorist' is an end in and of itself, and that using that word should stifle any further debate. As I suggested before, terrorism only becomes an 'absolute' label when it is directed against us. We were quite happy to call the Mujhadeen "Freedom Fighters" when they were battling the Soviets - kidnapping their soldiers and cutting of their heads.

Clearly the middle east has significant political and social problems - again I don't disagree with you there. What I am not comfortable with is discarding those issues as a means simply to validate simplistic preconceived prejudices.

Edited August 8, 2006 by erekose

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

I'm bored.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm bored.

I'm sure you could find something in the news to be 'outraged' about

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

I'm bored.

I'm sure you could find something in the news to be 'outraged' about

Hmmm. Maybe I'll read the news, get outraged and take it out on my wife.

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

I'm bored.

I'm sure you could find something in the news to be 'outraged' about

Hmmm. Maybe I'll read the news, get outraged and take it out on my wife.

inshallah

[mawilson 2,133]

I seem to remember you making a similar comment about blacks filling the nations prisons. While I won't disagree about the numbers, I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the reason blacks are in jail has anything whatsoever to do with race, as much as socio-economic and educational factors. That is the essence of racialism.

Surely it has a lot to do with race. For example, if cops are racist, they will arrest more blacks than whites.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I seem to remember you making a similar comment about blacks filling the nations prisons. While I won't disagree about the numbers, I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the reason blacks are in jail has anything whatsoever to do with race, as much as socio-economic and educational factors. That is the essence of racialism.

Surely it has a lot to do with race. For example, if cops are racist, they will arrest more blacks than whites.

Superficially of course. I guess it comes down to whether you believe that criminality is intrinsic to being black. I don't - I think it has more to do with a person's background, socio-economic status and general level of education.

[Jenn! 918]

I seem to remember you making a similar comment about blacks filling the nations prisons. While I won't disagree about the numbers, I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the reason blacks are in jail has anything whatsoever to do with race, as much as socio-economic and educational factors. That is the essence of racialism.

Surely it has a lot to do with race. For example, if cops are racist, they will arrest more blacks than whites.

Superficially of course. I guess it comes down to whether you believe that criminality is intrinsic to being black. I don't - I think it has more to do with a person's background, socio-economic status and general level of education.

Many would say that a lower socio-economic status and lower general level of education are instrinsic to being black.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I seem to remember you making a similar comment about blacks filling the nations prisons. While I won't disagree about the numbers, I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the reason blacks are in jail has anything whatsoever to do with race, as much as socio-economic and educational factors. That is the essence of racialism.

Surely it has a lot to do with race. For example, if cops are racist, they will arrest more blacks than whites.

Superficially of course. I guess it comes down to whether you believe that criminality is intrinsic to being black. I don't - I think it has more to do with a person's background, socio-economic status and general level of education.

Many would say that a lower socio-economic status and lower general level of education are instrinsic to being black.

True - but the assumption there is that we are living in a 'fair and equal' society to begin with. There is a significant gap between rich and poor and between ethnic groups. What conclusion do you draw from that - that ethnic minorities are somehow 'less intelligent'?

[Jenn! 918]

I seem to remember you making a similar comment about blacks filling the nations prisons. While I won't disagree about the numbers, I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the reason blacks are in jail has anything whatsoever to do with race, as much as socio-economic and educational factors. That is the essence of racialism.

Surely it has a lot to do with race. For example, if cops are racist, they will arrest more blacks than whites.

Superficially of course. I guess it comes down to whether you believe that criminality is intrinsic to being black. I don't - I think it has more to do with a person's background, socio-economic status and general level of education.

Many would say that a lower socio-economic status and lower general level of education are instrinsic to being black.

True - but the assumption there is that we are living in a 'fair and equal' society to begin with. There is a significant gap between rich and poor and between ethnic groups. What conclusion do you draw from that - that ethnic minorities are somehow 'less intelligent'?

I personally do not draw that conclusion, because I don't assume that our society is fair and equal.

I believe that there are a disturbing number of people, many more than are willing to admit, who do believe that low socio-economic status and education are the results of bad decisions and inferior intellect, rather than unfair circumstances.

Edited August 8, 2006 by jenn3539

[mawilson 2,133]

True - but the assumption there is that we are living in a 'fair and equal' society to begin with. There is a significant gap between rich and poor and between ethnic groups. What conclusion do you draw from that - that ethnic minorities are somehow 'less intelligent'?

Then why is it that 10 million Chinese people (and other people of Asian descent) who

have arrived here recently, are among the most successful of all immigrant groups?

They have a higher income than other ethnic groups, and their children study at the best

American universities. Surely the opportunities are there for those who are interested?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I seem to remember you making a similar comment about blacks filling the nations prisons. While I won't disagree about the numbers, I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the reason blacks are in jail has anything whatsoever to do with race, as much as socio-economic and educational factors. That is the essence of racialism.

Surely it has a lot to do with race. For example, if cops are racist, they will arrest more blacks than whites.

Superficially of course. I guess it comes down to whether you believe that criminality is intrinsic to being black. I don't - I think it has more to do with a person's background, socio-economic status and general level of education.

Many would say that a lower socio-economic status and lower general level of education are instrinsic to being black.

True - but the assumption there is that we are living in a 'fair and equal' society to begin with. There is a significant gap between rich and poor and between ethnic groups. What conclusion do you draw from that - that ethnic minorities are somehow 'less intelligent'?

I believe that there are a disturbing number of people, many more than are willing to admit, who do believe that low socio-economic status and education are the results of bad decisions and inferior intellect, rather than unfair circumstances.

Which is really the point - the issues at the root of the problem (and again terrorism is not exception) are thrown out in favour of the obvious, if less honest, view that race dictates behaviour. Clearly it doesn't as the millions of blacks who don't commit crimes and have successful careers don't fit that pattern - neither do the millions upon millions of muslims who don't condone or otherwise support islamic extremism.