what we still don't understand

[mawilson 2,133]

The type of missiles being fired by Hizbullah at Israeli cities cannot be fired from within houses, mosques, hospitals or even UN facilities as has been suggested by the IDF. Due to the massive "back-blast" caused by the rocket launchers of these missiles, they can only be fired from open ground. To fire them from within a building would result in the instant death of the missile crew and probable destruction of the missile before launch. Most of the missiles are truck-mounted and are fired - on open ground - from the backs of flat-bedded trucks or larger four-wheel-drive vehicles.

Not from "within" a building, but why can't they be fired from the roof of a building?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

"Evil" is really a point of view - the religiosity of the conflict of course makes it easier to couch things in those terms, but ultimately it is a simplification.

There is a historical and political basis behind this, islamic fundamentalists seem to have taken over from the WW2 Nazis as the stereotypical (stupid) bad guys, which perhaps is why people keep comparing WW2 with the current world situation - despite the fact that they are uniquely different.

There's no 'right' or 'wrong'. Yeah, we get it. Have an opinion...

"A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel."

----Robert Frost

My opinion is that boths sides are at fault for the current situation for reasons that predate this particular incident, and are propagandising it for their own purposes.

Common sense dictates that short of massive genocide, neither of these people's are going anywhere and must find some way to co-exist, preferably peacefully.

I don't see a problem with condemning Hezbollah (and its backers) for firing missiles indiscriminately into civilian areas with Israel, but I'm not about to jump up and cheer when Israel's response is to lay waste to an entire region, and kill or forcibly relocate hundreds of thousands of people to God knows where, and destroying an infrastructure that has taken 15 years to rebuild.

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

The type of missiles being fired by Hizbullah at Israeli cities cannot be fired from within houses, mosques, hospitals or even UN facilities as has been suggested by the IDF. Due to the massive "back-blast" caused by the rocket launchers of these missiles, they can only be fired from open ground. To fire them from within a building would result in the instant death of the missile crew and probable destruction of the missile before launch. Most of the missiles are truck-mounted and are fired - on open ground - from the backs of flat-bedded trucks or larger four-wheel-drive vehicles.

Not from "within" a building, but why can't they be fired from the roof of a building?

maybe that's why, it's mounted on a truck

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

In Mideast, shades of 1982

By Augustus Richard Norton | August 7, 2006

The Boston Globe

ISRAEL'S WAR in Lebanon, like its 1982 forbear, was launched with the ambitious aim of buttressing Israel's regional hegemony and security. The 1982 invasion turned into an occupation of southern Lebanon that nurtured and hardened Hezbollah, which became the formidable foe that Israel today confronts. Whether the present war is over in a few days or even weeks, it is clear that not only will Hezbollah survive Israel's onslaught as perhaps the dominant political force in Lebanon, but most distressing is the possibility of Lebanon collapsing into chaos, even civil war.

In terms of the US role in the Lebanon wars, what is most remarkable are the naive assumptions that have framed presidential decision-making. President Ronald Reagan, commenting 24 years ago on the rationale for Israel's invasion, referred to the Palestine Liberation Organization rockets constantly raining on Israel. Reagan did not seem to know that the PLO had been scrupulously observing a cease-fire negotiated by the renowned US diplomat Philip Habib. In a similar vein, President Bush refers regularly to Hezbollah's terrorist attacks on Israel, while Israel's border with Lebanon has been mostly quiet since Israel ended its occupation of southern Lebanon in 2000.

Bush is a one-trick pony when it comes to terrorism, so he has little need for nuance or contradiction. Hezbollah is designated by the United States as a "terrorist group," a label that Israeli officials use with alacrity to cement support for their actions. The word "terrorism" is a convenient rhetorical bludgeon. It substitutes for serious thinking and leads to the nonsensical conclusion that whatever Hezbollah does is an act of terrorism. The result is a US policy that supports Israel's "counterterrorism" war to the point that a third of Lebanon's people are now refugees, hatred of America has become red hot, and the war has caused a major rift with important European allies.

All of this to fight terrorism, we are told. The war's hefty death toll includes hundreds of Lebanese and dozens of Israeli civilians, human sacrifices on the altar of the war on terrorism. What most casual observers are not expected to know, but what Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Bush should know, is that the six years between Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Lebanon in May 2000 until the momentous Hezbollah attack on July 12 were comparatively placid.

During that period, one Israeli civilian was killed by Hezbollah weapons (and five more were killed in a Palestinian operation that may have been helped by Hezbollah ). Meanwhile, more than a score of Lebanese civilians were killed either by hostile action or by mines left behind by Israel. The dead deserve that we not treat their violent end lightly. Haviv Donon, 16, who was felled by a Hezbollah antiaircraft round fired at Israeli planes violating Lebanese airspace, and Yusif Rahil, 15, a shepherd killed by an artillery round intended for Hezbollah after an attack in Shebaa Farms, were innocent victims. Thankfully, such victims were far fewer then than may be commonly imagined.

There were serious clashes in the vicinity of the Shebaa Farms, part of the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights claimed by Lebanon during that six-year period. Nine Israeli soldiers died in Hezbollah attacks in the contested area, and 16, including eight on July 12, were killed along the international border in seven clashes. Some of the attacks were in retaliation for Israeli-caused deaths in Lebanon. At least 21 Israeli soldiers were also wounded. By way of comparison, an average of 25 Israeli soldiers died annually during Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon, according to Justice Minister Haim Ramon. More Israeli soldiers than that already have died in the present war.

With one possible exception, there were no purposeful attacks on Israeli civilians across the Lebanese border. This is important to recognize because it illustrates that the task of maintaining stability across this hostile border was neither impossible nor infeasible. Indeed, the rules of the game were well understood by both Israel and its Hezbollah foe.

Israel's over-the-top reaction to the Hezbollah cross-border operation has more to do with settling scores with Hezbollah, eradicating an Iranian proxy, and restoring the credibility of Israel's deterrence than with the actual level of violence coming from Lebanon. Hezbollah provided a handy pretext when it breached Israel's border to capture two Israeli soldiers. Much as the attempted assassination in 1982 of Ambassador Shlomo Argov in London by a blood foe of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat provided a pretext for an Israeli army poised to destroy the PLO and to remake Lebanon, so the foolhardy July 12 operation provided a pretext for Israel to secure its mantle of hegemony.

As for President Bush, he flashed a green light for Israel. He found the opportunity to decimate Hezbollah and to signal to Iran "you may be next" too delicious to pass up. It is still early for a requiem, but one has to wonder whether the 2000-2006 period might, in a year or so, look pretty good compared to the new realities and new violence that history warns us to expect.

Augustus Richard Norton is a professor of anthropology and international relations at Boston University.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial...shades_of_1982/

[vartan 0]

maybe that's why, it's mounted on a truck

Whitewalls . wicked!

[rclouse 0]

it is clear that not only will Hezbollah survive Israel's onslaught as perhaps the dominant political force in Lebanon, but most distressing is the possibility of Lebanon collapsing into chaos, even civil war.

Maybe that's what Hezbollah wanted all along.

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

it is clear that not only will Hezbollah survive Israel's onslaught as perhaps the dominant political force in Lebanon, but most distressing is the possibility of Lebanon collapsing into chaos, even civil war.

Maybe that's what Hezbollah wanted all along.

and who better to capitalize on such a scenario?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

IDF reservists: Our missions are unclear, our combat equipment is antiquated

By Amiram Barkat and Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondents

Reserve soldiers are returning from fighting in south Lebanon with harsh criticisms of their operational preparedness and the combat equipment with which they had been supplied.

After three days of combat in south Lebanon, infantry soldiers from the Israel Defense Force's reserve Carmeli Battalion returned Sunday to Israel.

A., a young reservist who spent his mandatory service in the Golani Brigade during the second intifada, said, "For two days, we barely made any progress. The soldiers simply don't really know what the mission is. You are mostly kept busy with protecting yourself."

Interviews with the battalion's soldiers revealed a picture of complicated fighting under heavy Hezbollah fire in which the soldiers know very little of their mission.

Nearly every reserve unit has complained about a lack of emergency equipment over the past several days.

The soldier's in A.'s brigade operated in the villages of Kila and Bnei al-Awad in the central sector. A. says that things he witnessed in recent days in Lebanon bear no resemblance to anything he saw as a recruit in the Palestinian territories. "We seized a few homes in the village under constant bombardment from mortar shells," A. says. "It is nothing like the territories. During daylight hours, you do not see a living soul. You barely see anything at night either. There are apparently people who pass Hezbollah information regarding the location of our forces and they fire mortar shells. The shells fall around you and that is frightening.

"Many soldiers don't have short-barreled M-16 rifles, communications equipment or even tourniquets," "A" said.

Hanan (fictitious name), who serves in an elite reserve unit, said soldiers returning from combat in Lebanon were forced to hand their weapons over to soldiers heading north across the border.

Gili is also a soldier in an elite reserve infantry unit that is supposed to be supplied with the most sophisticated equipment. One week ago, when his unit was deployed to Lebanon, it became clear that most of their wartime equipment was missing from their emergency warehouses.

"We are supposed to enter the fray against guerilla fighters who have been training for six years," Gili said Monday. "And our weapons are the only advantage that we have over them. During all the years that I served in the reserves, we had the best equipment but now that we have reached the moment of truth the equipment has vanished."

Soldiers from the Alexandroni Brigade now serving in Lebanon were shocked to discover they were issued equipment dating from the first Lebanon war in 1982.

"My helmet was manufactured in 1981," said 22-year-old Gal. "It is three years older than me."

The unit's maintenance officer, Eli Altman, said the newest equipment was naturally distributed to combat soldiers in the regular army. Altman added, however, "We could have ensured that the equipment in our warehouses would be useable."

Less deployment, more training

Former chief reserve officer Brigadier General Ariel Heimann said he was troubled by the combat fitness level of reserve soldiers.

It is no secret that the IDF's reserve units were the main victims of budget cuts over the past several years.

"The easiest thing is to cut training hours," Heimann said. "What is clear is that the reserve units have not been trained enough. The extent to which this lack of training is critical can only be measured during combat."

Against the background of budget cuts, Heimann and others led reforms in reserve service in which it was decided to exempt reserve forces from military operations and limit their days of service to training. Heimann maintains that the current war proves the wisdom of this decision.

Contrary to soldiers in the regular army, reservists are not required to maintain their fitness level.

Before their deployment in Lebanon, soldiers from the Alexandroni Brigade trained for three days. During this short period of time, the reservists were meant to prepare themselves long hikes through steep, rocky terrain while carrying equipment weighing up to 40 kilograms.

Reserve deputy battalion commander Major Ziv Rozelman said their extensive combat experience and their earlier periods of deployment in Lebanon give make up for their lower fitness levels.

Deputy Battalion Commander Major Ziv Rozelman claims that reservists' previous combat experience and the fact that, unlike recruits, they served in Lebanon in the past compensates for their lack of physical fitness. "There is no doubt that enlisted soldiers are stronger but we are like old bulls: We work slowly but surely and take no risks."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/747356.html

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Days of darkness

By Gideon Levy, Haaretz Columnist

In war as in war: Israel is sinking into a strident, nationalistic atmosphere and darkness is beginning to cover everything. The brakes we still had are eroding, the insensitivity and blindness that characterized Israeli society in recent years is intensifying. The home front is cut in half: the north suffers and the center is serene. But both have been taken over by tones of jingoism, ruthlessness and vengeance, and the voices of extremism that previously characterized the camp's margins are now expressing its heart. The left has once again lost its way, wrapped in silence or "admitting mistakes." Israel is exposing a unified, nationalistic face.

The devastation we are sowing in Lebanon doesn't touch anyone here and most of it is not even shown to Israelis. Those who want to know what Tyre looks like now have to turn to foreign channels - the BBC reporter brings chilling images from there, the likes of which won't be seen here. How can one not be shocked by the suffering of the other, at our hands, even when our north suffers? The death we are sowing at the same time, right now in Gaza, with close to 120 dead since the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit, 27 last Wednesday alone, touches us even less. The hospitals in Gaza are full of burned children, but who cares? The darkness of the war in the north covers them, too.

Since we've grown accustomed to thinking collective punishment a legitimate weapon, it is no wonder no debate has sparked here over the cruel punishment of Lebanon for Hezbollah's actions. If it was okay in Nablus, why not Beirut? The only criticism being heard about this war is over tactics. Everyone is a general now and they are mostly pushing the IDF to deepen its activities. Commentators, ex-generals and politicians compete at raising the stakes with extreme proposals.

Haim Ramon "doesn't understand" why there is still electricity in Baalbek; Eli Yishai proposes turning south Lebanon into a "sandbox"; Yoav Limor, a Channel 1 military correspondent, proposes an exhibition of Hezbollah corpses and the next day to conduct a parade of prisoners in their underwear, "to strengthen the home front's morale."

It's not difficult to guess what we would think about an Arab TV station whose commentators would say something like that, but another few casualties or failures by the IDF, and Limor's proposal will be implemented. Is there any better sign of how we have lost our senses and our humanity?

Chauvinism and an appetite for vengeance are raising their heads. If two weeks ago only lunatics such as Safed Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu spoke about "wiping out every village where a Katyusha is fired," now a senior officer in the IDF speaks that way in Yedioth Aharonoth's main headlines. Lebanese villages may not have been wiped out yet, but we have long since wiped out our own red lines.

A bereaved father, Haim Avraham, whose son was kidnapped and killed by Hezbollah in October 2000, fires an artillery shell into Lebanon for the reporters. It's vengeance for his son. His image, embracing the decorated artillery shell is one of the most disgraceful images of this war. And it's only the first. A group of young girls also have their picture taken decorating IDF shells with slogans.

Maariv, which has turned into the Fox News of Israel, fills its pages with chauvinist slogans reminiscent of particularly inferior propaganda machines, such as "Israel is strong" - which is indicative of weakness, actually - while a TV commentator calls for the bombing of a TV station.

Lebanon, which has never fought Israel and has 40 daily newspapers, 42 colleges and universities and hundreds of different banks, is being destroyed by our planes and cannon and nobody is taking into account the amount of hatred we are sowing. In international public opinion, Israel has been turned into a monster, and that still hasn't been calculated into the debit column of this war. Israel is badly stained, a moral stain that can't be easily and quickly removed. And only we don't want to see it.

The people want victory, and nobody knows what that is and what its price will be.

The Zionist left has also been made irrelevant. As in every difficult test in the past - the two intifadas for example - this time too the left has failed just when its voice was so necessary as a counterweight to the stridency of the beating tom-toms of war. Why have a left if at every real test it joins the national chorus?

Peace Now stands silently, so does Meretz, except for brave Zehava Gal-On. A few days of a war of choice and already Yehoshua Sobol is admitting he was wrong all along. Peace Now is suddenly an "infantile slogan" for him. His colleagues are silent and their silence is no less resounding. Only the extreme left makes its voice heard, but it is a voice nobody listens to.

Long before this war is decided, it can already be stated that its spiraling cost will include the moral blackout that is surrounding and covering us all, threatening our existence and image no less than Hezbollah's Katyushas.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744061.html

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

The type of missiles being fired by Hizbullah at Israeli cities cannot be fired from within houses, mosques, hospitals or even UN facilities as has been suggested by the IDF. Due to the massive "back-blast" caused by the rocket launchers of these missiles, they can only be fired from open ground. To fire them from within a building would result in the instant death of the missile crew and probable destruction of the missile before launch. Most of the missiles are truck-mounted and are fired - on open ground - from the backs of flat-bedded trucks or larger four-wheel-drive vehicles.

Not from "within" a building, but why can't they be fired from the roof of a building?

They can be fired from a roof or even inside a building (though it would be a hassle to get the rockets inside). One of the videos CNN endlessly plays is of a launcher firing rockets. They are remotely fired by wire. Some guy is not lighting the fuse with a cigarette.

They are most likely fired from positions close to civilian targets.

this is a ww2 soviet launcher

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

The type of missiles being fired by Hizbullah at Israeli cities cannot be fired from within houses, mosques, hospitals or even UN facilities as has been suggested by the IDF. Due to the massive "back-blast" caused by the rocket launchers of these missiles, they can only be fired from open ground. To fire them from within a building would result in the instant death of the missile crew and probable destruction of the missile before launch. Most of the missiles are truck-mounted and are fired - on open ground - from the backs of flat-bedded trucks or larger four-wheel-drive vehicles.

Not from "within" a building, but why can't they be fired from the roof of a building?

They can be fired from a roof or even inside a building (though it would be a hassle to get the rockets inside). One of the videos CNN endlessly plays is of a launcher firing rockets. They are remotely fired by wire. Some guy is not lighting the fuse with a cigarette.

They are most likely fired from positions close to civilian targets.

this is a ww2 soviet launcher

they need to upgrade to a frog-7. them little rockets ain't worth messing with.

oh here is a pic for you btw

Edited August 7, 2006 by charlesandnessa

[lostinlove228 0]

There will one winner in a civil war and that is Isreal. It will never happen.

[Jenn! 918]

"Evil" is really a point of view - the religiosity of the conflict of course makes it easier to couch things in those terms, but ultimately it is a simplification.

There is a historical and political basis behind this, islamic fundamentalists seem to have taken over from the WW2 Nazis as the stereotypical (stupid) bad guys, which perhaps is why people keep comparing WW2 with the current world situation - despite the fact that they are uniquely different.

There's no 'right' or 'wrong'. Yeah, we get it. Have an opinion...

"A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel."

----Robert Frost

Does having an opinion mean picking either Israel or Hezbollah and then defending it no matter what? Seeing shades of gray rather than strictly black or white does not indicate lack of opinion.

[Fuzzness 2]

"Evil" is really a point of view - the religiosity of the conflict of course makes it easier to couch things in those terms, but ultimately it is a simplification.

There is a historical and political basis behind this, islamic fundamentalists seem to have taken over from the WW2 Nazis as the stereotypical (stupid) bad guys, which perhaps is why people keep comparing WW2 with the current world situation - despite the fact that they are uniquely different.

There's no 'right' or 'wrong'. Yeah, we get it. Have an opinion...

"A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel."

----Robert Frost

Does having an opinion mean picking either Israel or Hezbollah and then defending it no matter what? Seeing shades of gray rather than strictly black or white does not indicate lack of opinion.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

"Evil" is really a point of view - the religiosity of the conflict of course makes it easier to couch things in those terms, but ultimately it is a simplification.

There is a historical and political basis behind this, islamic fundamentalists seem to have taken over from the WW2 Nazis as the stereotypical (stupid) bad guys, which perhaps is why people keep comparing WW2 with the current world situation - despite the fact that they are uniquely different.

There's no 'right' or 'wrong'. Yeah, we get it. Have an opinion...

"A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel."

----Robert Frost

Does having an opinion mean picking either Israel or Hezbollah and then defending it no matter what? Seeing shades of gray rather than strictly black or white does not indicate lack of opinion.

You understand that Hezbollah are terrorists. right? Is ANYONE on this board going to back terrorists? I would keep this a secret from the USCIS. You people act like Hezbollah is a country. I can understand supporting Lebanon though.

I'm not asking people to support Israel. But I am asking people not to support terrorism. I WILL CONTACT THE USCIS AND THE DHS IF I FEEL THE NEED.