Italian city fines Muslim woman for wearing burqa

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Ah, please, the cultural expert. Let's here some of your experience and expertise on the cultural forces at work in France.

Do you make it your daily duty to be an uneducated smart a$$ on here or what?

If you understand anything about Natives of France, culture is a really big deal there to them, and the fact that they are losing it due to mixture of cultures, immigration, etc. Hell, France was one of the first nations to suggest banning the burqa due to the influx of muslims into France over the past many years... It's an issue for them, as would be expected of any nation who has had an influential culture for such a long time.

Here's a recent article of the many over the past few years on France. Just an example:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/25/arts/25abroad.html?pagewanted=1

Excerpt:

The issue is somewhat akin to Americans complaining about the rise of Spanish in classrooms and elsewhere, but more acute here because of France’s special, proprietary, albeit no longer entirely realistic relationship to French. French is now spoken mostly by people who aren’t French. More than 50 percent of them are African. French speakers are more likely to be Haitians and Canadians, Algerians and Senegalese, immigrants from Africa and Southeast Asia and the Caribbean who have settled in France, bringing their native cultures with them.

Which raises the question: So what does French culture signify these days when there are some 200 million French speakers in the world but only 65 million are actually French? Culture in general — and not just French culture — has become increasingly unfixed, unstable, fragmentary and elective. Globalization has hastened the desire of more people, both groups and individuals, to differentiate themselves from one another to claim a distinct place in the world, and language has long been an obvious means to do so. In Canada the Quebecers tried outlawing signs and other public expressions in anything but French. Basque separatists have been murdering Spaniards in the name of political, linguistic and cultural independence, just as Franco imprisoned anyone who spoke Basque or Catalan. In Belgium the split between French and Dutch speakers has divided the country for ages.

And in France some years ago Jacques Toubon, a former culture minister, proposed curbing the use of English words like “weekend,” although nobody paid much attention. The fact is, French isn’t declining. It’s thriving as never before if you ask Abdou Diouf, former president of Senegal, who is the secretary general of the francophone organization. Mr. Diouf’s organization has evolved since 1970 from a postcolonial conglomerate of mostly African states preserving the linguistic vestiges of French imperialism into a global entity whose shibboleth is cultural diversity. With dozens of member states and affiliates, the group reflects a polyglot reality in which French is today concentrated outside France, and to a large extent, flourishes despite it.

“The truth,” Mr. Diouf said the other morning, “is that the future of the French language is now in Africa.” There and elsewhere, from Belgium to Benin, Lebanon to St. Lucia, the Seychelles to Switzerland, Togo to Tunisia, French is just one among several languages, sometimes, as in Cameroon, one among hundreds of them. This means that for writers from these places French is a choice, not necessarily signifying fealty, political, cultural or otherwise, to France. Or as Mr. Diouf put it: “The more we have financial, military and economic globalization, the more we find common cultural references and common values, which include diversity. And diversity, not uniformity, is the real result of globalization.”

Edited May 5, 2010 by Paul and Vanessa

[Peikko 1,575]

According to one of my best friends who is also from the UK, the UK is one of those countries too.

I recall when I was young it was routine for 5 year olds to walk a half mile to school or more unattended.

To this day, Japanese children of a very young age often travel long distances to school unsupervised

(but they do travel in groups when they can). I think I can say that in the US we have lost that kind of

freedom. I'm in the same neighborhood as I was when I was 5, but today I would never let my 5 year

old walk to school alone if I had one. I'm also certain the school authorities would probably initiate a

"parental abuse" alert with the authorities if I had one and did that.

To attribute the inability of five year olds to wander around willy nilly today solely to there being no requirement to present ID whenever and wherever to the police is, well stretching the truth enourmously.

One of the main reasons that children of that age can't really safely walk around in many areas is traffic. I do not personally think the streets are much different in terms of safety from criminal predation than they have ever been either in the UK or in the US. Of course you school your children not to talk to jump into cars with strangers, but that's not new.

I find it oddly discomfiting that so many people are worried about public safety to the point that they are ready and willing to give up this civil liberty - very sad.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

How is it "freedom" to allow the police to exercise authority without limit, reason or oversight?

That's effed up!

I myself am not a huge fan of stop and ID laws, but they do have limits.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The issue is somewhat akin to Americans complaining about the rise of Spanish in classrooms and elsewhere, but more acute here because of France’s special, proprietary, albeit no longer entirely realistic relationship to French. French is now spoken mostly by people who aren’t French. More than 50 percent of them are African. French speakers are more likely to be Haitians and Canadians, Algerians and Senegalese, immigrants from Africa and Southeast Asia and the Caribbean who have settled in France, bringing their native cultures with them.

Which raises the question: So what does French culture signify these days when there are some 200 million French speakers in the world but only 65 million are actually French? Culture in general — and not just French culture — has become increasingly unfixed, unstable, fragmentary and elective. Globalization has hastened the desire of more people, both groups and individuals, to differentiate themselves from one another to claim a distinct place in the world, and language has long been an obvious means to do so. In Canada the Quebecers tried outlawing signs and other public expressions in anything but French. Basque separatists have been murdering Spaniards in the name of political, linguistic and cultural independence, just as Franco imprisoned anyone who spoke Basque or Catalan. In Belgium the split between French and Dutch speakers has divided the country for ages.

And in France some years ago Jacques Toubon, a former culture minister, proposed curbing the use of English words like “weekend,” although nobody paid much attention. The fact is, French isn’t declining. It’s thriving as never before if you ask Abdou Diouf, former president of Senegal, who is the secretary general of the francophone organization. Mr. Diouf’s organization has evolved since 1970 from a postcolonial conglomerate of mostly African states preserving the linguistic vestiges of French imperialism into a global entity whose shibboleth is cultural diversity. With dozens of member states and affiliates, the group reflects a polyglot reality in which French is today concentrated outside France, and to a large extent, flourishes despite it.

“The truth,” Mr. Diouf said the other morning, “is that the future of the French language is now in Africa.” There and elsewhere, from Belgium to Benin, Lebanon to St. Lucia, the Seychelles to Switzerland, Togo to Tunisia, French is just one among several languages, sometimes, as in Cameroon, one among hundreds of them. This means that for writers from these places French is a choice, not necessarily signifying fealty, political, cultural or otherwise, to France. Or as Mr. Diouf put it: “The more we have financial, military and economic globalization, the more we find common cultural references and common values, which include diversity. And diversity, not uniformity, is the real result of globalization.”

What exactly is supposed to be drawn from this?

You could make the exact same case for English or Spanish that is being made here for French. It's meaningless.

[Heracles 417]

How is it "freedom" to allow the police to exercise authority without limit, reason or oversight?

That's effed up!

No pike, it's normal and common sense. What's effed up is your denial of reality. The police are dealing with criminals that play by no rules, not PhD scholars.

The police in 2010 are there to enforce the law and protect the people. Perhaps this is a bizarre concept to you but to the rest of us in the developed world, we want to give them the tools to do their job; rather than pussyfoot around. It's why in a city of 4 million I can count on one hand the number of attempted kidnappings, though we often walked 15 to 30 minutes to get to school. Whereas, in the last week alone there have been at least two cases reported on the local news.

[Peikko 1,575]

Do you make it your daily duty to be an uneducated smart a$ on here or what?

If you understand anything about Natives of France, culture is a really big deal there to them, and the fact that they are losing it due to mixture of cultures, immigration, etc. Hell, France was one of the first nations to suggest banning the burqa due to the influx of muslims into France over the past many years... It's an issue for them, as would be expected of any nation who has had an influential culture for such a long time.

Here's a recent article of the many over the past few years on France. Just an example:

http://www.nytimes.c...ml?pagewanted=1

Excerpt:

That's your exerptise is it? Looking up extracts from American newspapers and making trite assessments as to why the French might have an interest in banning full head covering in public places. Well done - I'm impressed - not. How many years did you live in France young Paul, hmmm?

[Heracles 417]

That's your exerptise is it? Looking up extracts from American newspapers and making trite assessments as to why the French might have an interest in banning full head covering in public places. Well done - I'm impressed - not. How many years did you live in France young Paul, hmmm?

Far enough but what is your expertise? Unfortunately telling people you disagree with that they are wrong does not cut it.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Booyah!

[Peikko 1,575]

The extract is interesting mind you, the French language as a means to maintain cultural diversity on a global scale but it's not an inward looking essay on the threat to French culture by outside influences, more specifically from muslims - try again.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

No pike, it's normal and common sense. What's effed up is your denial of reality. The police are dealing with criminals that play by no rules, not PhD scholars.

The police in 2010 are there to enforce the law and protect the people. Perhaps this is a bizarre concept to you but to the rest of us in the developed world, we want to give them the tools to do their job; rather than pussyfoot around. It's why in a city of 4 million I can count on one hand the number of attempted kidnappings, though we often walked 15 to 30 minutes to get to school. Whereas, in the last week alone there have been at least two cases reported on the local news.

BY, you are the only person I know who could read 1984 and think that the society it describes is a desirable place to live.

If you can let go of your hysteria for a couple of minutes, perhaps you will answer a straight question. Do you think that the police should be allowed to operate with no limits whatsoever?

What would you consider unacceptable behaviour on the part of the police?

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Far enough but what is your expertise? Unfortunately telling people you disagree with that they are wrong does not cut it.

she spends her days purposefully trying to pick a fight around here. i/e - trolling.

She begs for sources, yet fails to produce her own other than an obnoxious opinion that is simply bashing you for whatever you post that she disagrees with.

[Peikko 1,575]

Far enough but what is your expertise? Unfortunately telling people you disagree with that they are wrong does not cut it.

At least I have lived there BY and maintain relationships with many french families. That doesn't give my opinion any particular weight because anecdotal evidence is not proof but Paul doesn't have more than a fleeting interest in France or the French. His only reference is this stupid ####### about head coverings as some threat to European culture. That is just asinine.

[thongd4me 69]

I have been to Jerusalem and walked the "Via Dolorosa."

For those who haven't, it's pretty much a winding alleyway.

If there was a public ordinance to prevent people from carrying large pieces of lumber

that may likely fall on unsuspecting passersby is that a violation of religious freedom?

- to respond to an earlier comment, I DO think that the ability of police to stop people

in a reasonable manner DOES have something to do with public safety which includes

the safety of our children. Children don't like to be run over by cars any more than big

people do but they are not that sophisticated when it comes to those who would harm

them while pretending to be responsible adults. Japanese children travel about alone

in conditions of much more congested traffic than American kids ever would.

[Peikko 1,575]

she spends her days purposefully trying to pick a fight around here. i/e - trolling.

She begs for sources, yet fails to produce her own other than an obnoxious opinion that is simply bashing you for whatever you post that she disagrees with.

I find things amusing and you accuse me of being a troll? Calm down or stop responding to things I post.

[Peikko 1,575]

I have been to Jerusalem and walked the "Via Dolorosa."

For those who haven't, it's pretty much a winding alleyway.

If there was a public ordinance to prevent people from carrying large pieces of lumber

that may likely fall on unsuspecting passersby is that a violation of religious freedom?

- to respond to an earlier comment, I DO think that the ability of police to stop people

in a reasonable manner DOES have something to do with public safety which includes

the safety of our children. Children don't like to be run over by cars any more than big

people do but they are not that sophisticated when it comes to those who would harm

them while pretending to be responsible adults. Japanese children travel about alone

in conditions of much more congested traffic than American kids ever would.

I have highlighted the bolded because that has nothing to do with any public safety issue that could be addressed by unrestricted stop and search policies - so how do you explain this phenomena? I am interested.

[Heracles 417]

BY, you are the only person I know who could read 1984 and think that the society it describes is a desirable place to live.

If you can let go of your hysteria for a couple of minutes, perhaps you will answer a straight question. Do you think that the police should be allowed to operate with no limits whatsoever?

What would you consider unacceptable behaviour on the part of the police?

Sorry Pike but the majority of the first world doesn't have platinum copies of V for Vendetta or Children of Men. Furthermore, we certainly don't make decisions based on silly fictional novels.

Funny you say I am the one with the hysteria, when it's you who assumes police will abuse their power period. This wouldn't happen to be the same police that have 24/7 video and mics recording their every move now would it? Nevertheless, just look at where the pike approach has gotten the two countries using it most: UK and USA.

You believe gangs like MS13 should have rights. Whereas, I believe they should be hunted down like the dogs they are; rather than be free to terrorize people and their neighborhoods. Perhaps watching a few gangland docos might show you the reality of these gangs. Then come tell me how many rights you want to give them.