Italian city fines Muslim woman for wearing burqa

[The_Dude 1,142]

The first time someone uses a burqa as a disguise to commit a crime, they will be banned here as well. There are strict situations in the U.S. where it would be a criminal offense to wear one already. You are not permited to cover your face at large gatherings as it is a safety concern.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

What was the reason for the couple being stopped by the police? AFAIK Italy hasn't outlawed the Burqa or other religious clothing, so what exactly precipitated this situation?

A police officer can't just approach someone going about their business and demand ID.

I haven't had a chance to check the validity of this, but certain media outlets have reported that is illegal to cover your face in public, hence the officer was likely in his rights to ask.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Sousuke

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

assuming her civil rights are not being violated in the first place by the police. in this country anyways, police cannot just walk up to someone on the street and detain them and force them to show their id without valid reason. i realize this is italy being discussed. but if it is the case that italian police have the ability to do that, it's disgraceful.

there are too many unknowns here. no one knows what her or her husband's behavior was just prior to the time the police asked them to id themselves. wearing a burqa in and of itself does not constitute reason for police to stop this couple and ask them for their id here. and it's my opinion that anyplace that does constitute that as plenty of reason violates the civil rights of their citizens.

**and now i see that mr madhouse has already posited this point, while i was typing. i need to learn to type faster

Actually in most areas of the US, they can. And I guarantee if they ask you to remove a face covering and you don't comply you will be taken to the station.

[Heracles 417]

All cultures evolve and intermingle over time. This idea of cultural purity is a bit odious IMO.

#### you are oblivious.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

assuming her civil rights are not being violated in the first place by the police. in this country anyways, police cannot just walk up to someone on the street and detain them and force them to show their id without valid reason. i realize this is italy being discussed. but if it is the case that italian police have the ability to do that, it's disgraceful.

there are too many unknowns here. no one knows what her or her husband's behavior was just prior to the time the police asked them to id themselves. wearing a burqa in and of itself does not constitute reason for police to stop this couple and ask them for their id here. and it's my opinion that anyplace that does constitute that as plenty of reason violates the civil rights of their citizens.

**and now i see that mr madhouse has already posited this point, while i was typing. i need to learn to type faster

Right, so how about we not jump to conclusions about religious descrimination yet.............sheesh

[Heracles 417]

It is, particularly when one concludes that only 'some' outside influences are dangerous while others are benign.

Nothing wrong with the rest of Europe not wanting to end up a 2010 UK. AKA Titanic 2.0.

Willing migrating to another nation yet refusing to integrate, furthermore actually living in silos is not what immigration should be about. These 3,000 year old countries should not lose their heritage. When you migrate to such a country, you play by their rules. not the other way around.

Though it's not surprising some here would not grasp this notion. After all, you expect Americans to bend over backwards for certain immigrants.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Booyah!

[Danno 1,228]

Parts of Spain already resemble an Islamic Country architecturally. Should they pull all these buildings down?

I am always 'real' Danno - yes, Europe has for the last 2,000 years been dominated by Judeo-Christian culture but I can't see how one can mandate that it remains that way, nor can you dictate to Europeans how many children they should have in order to preserve a particular culture that you prefer over another, even if such a thing were desirable, which I am not convinced that it is. Your fear of 'islamificaton' is rather bizarre because it does not appear to have a rational basis.

Ahhh MC you are doing it again.

1. what do I care if Italy goes Islamic or not, I have never even been there, it's strange how you take someones observations and try to project it into something more.

2.We agree one can't mandate Italy remain Christian, in fact why would you want to if the people can't even repopulate the childrens playgrounds.

3. Speaking of rational basis and whether the Islamification is on the horizon.... all over italy there is only- one grandchild for every 4 grandparents- one need not a calculator to understand time is short... even if the Muslim families were not fruitful.

[mawilson 2,133]

Fines or punishments aren't going to get the women to take the burqa off.

Prison might. They'll strip her down and throw her in the shower.

[Peikko 1,575]

Ahhh MC you are doing it again.

1. what do I care if Italy goes Islamic or not, I have never even been there, it's strange how you take someones observations and try to project it into something more.

2.We agree one can't mandate Italy remain Christian, in fact why would you want to if the people can't even repopulate the childrens playgrounds.

3. Speaking of rational basis and whether the Islamification is on the horizon.... all over italy there is only- one grandchild for every 4 grandparents- one need not a calculator to understand time is short... even if the Muslim families were not fruitful.

I am not projecting anything. Your phobia against the trappings of Islamic culture being visible in a historically judeo-christian culture is there for all to see, whether or not you care one jot for Italy or even Europe.

Your obsession with European birth rates is also bizarre. I can't imagine why a more sustainable, stable population scares you so much - Europeans will continue to have children, their culture will continue to flourish, even if as you say, you don't care anyway.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

I am not projecting anything. Your phobia against the trappings of Islamic culture being visible in a historically judeo-christian culture is there for all to see, whether or not you care one jot for Italy or even Europe.

Your obsession with European birth rates is also bizarre. I can't imagine why a more sustainable, stable population scares you so much - Europeans will continue to have children, their culture will continue to flourish, even if as you say, you don't care anyway.

France doesn't seem to think so.

[Peikko 1,575]

France doesn't seem to think so.

Ah, please, the cultural expert. Let's here some of your experience and expertise on the cultural forces at work in France.

[thongd4me 69]

The Italian law is an example of putting safety first. You have a woman who refuses to identify herself to police. How is that a good thing?

In most countries it's considered a reasonable request by police to ask anyone for ID for whatever reason.

The US is wrapped up with the issue of "just cause" and that becomes a holy grail and has the potential to

put public safety at risk. Japan by the way is one of those countries.

I doubt whether the woman would be imprisoned if she produced valid papers but the refusal by her

husband in her name could ALSO be interpreted by the police as evidence that she is being held

against her will, so they would have to take her to the stationhouse to confirm or deny that,

for her own SAFETY.

There are other ways to look at this than just as cultural insensitivity.

Edited May 5, 2010 by thongd4me

[Heracles 417]

In most countries it's considered a reasonable request by police to ask anyone for ID for whatever reason.

The US is wrapped up with the issue of "just cause" and that becomes a holy grail and has the potential to

put public safety at risk. Japan by the way is one of those countries.

The results of this attitude and flat-earth approach speaks for itself. Out of any first world country, per capita the US have the highest crime rate, highest drug usage, largest number of gangs and greatest organized crime period.

I'd rather have my family and friends be safe (literally free) than this misconceived notion of freedom. Freedom is a child being able to walk down the street and not be kidnapped. That is what the rest of the first world classifies as freedom. Whereas over here, being able to expose your #### is considered freedom.

It's just interesting to me that the type of freedom the Americans cherish and beat on about the most, no one else willing wants it. I couldn't pay Europe, Canada, Australia and various Asian countries to use it. Yet this does not phase anyone here or even tickle curiosity as to why.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Booyah!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

How is it "freedom" to allow the police to exercise authority without limit, reason or oversight?

That's effed up!

[thongd4me 69]

How is it "freedom" to allow the police to exercise authority without limit, reason or oversight?

That's effed up!

In most countries it's considered a reasonable request by police to ask anyone for ID for whatever reason.

The US is wrapped up with the issue of "just cause" and that becomes a holy grail and has the potential to

put public safety at risk. Japan by the way is one of those countries.

According to one of my best friends who is also from the UK, the UK is one of those countries too.

I recall when I was young it was routine for 5 year olds to walk a half mile to school or more unattended.

To this day, Japanese children of a very young age often travel long distances to school unsupervised

(but they do travel in groups when they can). I think I can say that in the US we have lost that kind of

freedom. I'm in the same neighborhood as I was when I was 5, but today I would never let my 5 year

old walk to school alone if I had one. I'm also certain the school authorities would probably initiate a

"parental abuse" alert with the authorities if I had one and did that.