Democrats Unveil Outline for Amnesty

[Ban Hammer 13,644]

Deportation would be a logistical nightmare, cost billions of dollars, clog up the courts and could take years. It is off the table. No one in Washington is suggesting that as a solution as it is utterly ridiculous.

i guess you never heard of self deportation - dry up the job market with draconian fines levied on businesses and individuals that knowingly hire illegals and you'll see a mass exodus outta the usa.

[Heracles 417]

You are worried about all illegal immigrants, fail to see where your rhetoric leads, fail to see the light which your constant spew sheds upon yourself, and fail completely to find any room for figuring out who needs to go, and who might be able to stay under any conditions. In short, you and the local VJ anti-illegal cadre are roughly equivalent to the mentality of the idiot in the article linked above.

The folks who cause the most trouble are the gangsters, fueled by the drug trade. But who buys the drugs? Unless and until you recognize the problem is not lost jobs, your arguments will always be seen in the light of anti-Hispanic ramblings.

readyfornone, the one thing you have shown is your inability to answer direct questions beyond ideological 'you hate brown people-esque' comebacks - as illustrated in other threads. Like anyone biased, you run on rhetorical cliches or silly scenarios. Gangsters are not fuel by drugs; rather, they use drugs to generate revenue to finance their actives. It's actually people like yourself who enable these gangs to operate so freely in this country. Because of your ilk, United States has the largest number of gangs and the highest drug use of any other first world country. Yet like any lock-step liberal yank, you turn a blind eye to this and try to shift the blame on conservatives, corporations, religion or racist accusations.

You're ilk are actually the easiest to own because conservatives like myself abroad have delivered a quality of life than not even 9,001 Washington states can compete with. It's people like you that promoted drug use as some sort of achievement - cool man - yet now have the audacity to use it in an argument. If I am guilty of anything it's being anti-idiot; hence why you and I don't get along well.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Booyah!

[Pooky 3,844]

Deportation would be a logistical nightmare, cost billions of dollars, clog up the courts and could take years. It is off the table. No one in Washington is suggesting that as a solution as it is utterly ridiculous.

As for your suggestions - they don't address the issue of what to do about the one who are already and have been here. We have to look at pragmatic solutions for those who are here.

They do. That you don't acknowledge that is down to your blindness to what the majority in this country want to see.

Eliminate the demand and the supply will dry up. Basic economics. What the majority of the American people want is for their representative democracy to start representing them. Nail the employers using illegal immigrants. Stop their ability to find employment. With no prospect of earning money, many will return home. The rest can be found, their status properly ascertained and, if they are found to be here illegally, they can be deported.

And so what if it takes years. That was part of my point. We don't have to deport 12 - 20 million people in the blink of an eye. If it takes years, then so be it. They will still be here illegally, if they're still here at all.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

A slap in the face to everyone here on VJ.

The US Government should offer EVERY person who came in legally and paid thousands in fees a full refund/tax credit if they are going to do amnesty once again.

The hell that was gone through in waiting to get here, to be able to stay here, for some people lasting a couple of years... Then illegals get to march in here, stay and get rewarded and maybe have to pay a fine for it? I call BULLSHIT.

Class Action Lawsuit against the Federal Government by all legal immigrants should happen.

And the current legislation on the books works fine. Just have to ENFORCE IT.

And the DREAM ACT? Are you fvcking kidding me? This fvcks US Citizens up the a$$ with a raw rusted rod.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

If they are stolen SS#'s, they are still paying into the system and will never be able to collect unless they've completely assumed the other person's identity. However, most of them are counterfeit. That means all the SS and Medicare taxes are taken out, but never collected by them. This started happening after Reagan's IRCA of 1986, which began requiring employers document a social security number. Someone could make the argument that the architects of that legislation realized that meant a new source of revenue for SS and Medicare, given these facts:

link

So this makes breaking the law, lying and cheating ok? They should be rewarded for this?

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Fine the US employers, take away the jobs and they will go home. Make it impossible for them to work and they will leave. Make it impossible to get a drivers license and insure a car. Arrest and deport them if they do. I just don't understand why anyone on this forum would be in favor of amnesty. It is a slap in the face and a kick in the balls to anyone who has ever immigrated here legally.

[Pooky 3,844]

Fine the US employers, take away the jobs and they will go home. Make it impossible for them to work and they will leave. Make it impossible to get a drivers license and insure a car. Arrest and deport them if they do. I just don't understand why anyone on this forum would be in favor of amnesty. It is a slap in the face and a kick in the balls to anyone who has ever immigrated here legally.

[luckytxn 2,265]

The last amnesty program did nothing to solve the illegal problem. It was also supposed to have penalties and hire more border patrol and start enforcing the laws which the Feds have never done. So for them to tell me they are going to now fix the problem is laughable. If they would just go out and enforce the law we have on the books now forcefully then we can talk. I agree that they need to constantly hit employers heavy. Hit some small and mid size and also the big size companies and never let up and we will see a huge migration flowing southward.

Also I keep hearing how they pay taxes. Most illegals are hired under the table. I have been all over this country and see just as many places where one can go and hire workers under the table. This hurts the U.S. workers by keeping our wages down. It also means most of the illegals pay nothing so us workers get hit twice and again when they use a service that is tax payer subsidized. Again when this money flows out of the country to their home. The largest flow of money is not their oil monies but from the illegals here.

The only reason the Socialists are doing this is for the votes down the road it will give them.

[Heracles 417]

Fine the US employers, take away the jobs and they will go home. Make it impossible for them to work and they will leave. Make it impossible to get a drivers license and insure a car. Arrest and deport them if they do. I just don't understand why anyone on this forum would be in favor of amnesty. It is a slap in the face and a kick in the balls to anyone who has ever immigrated here legally.

I think it should go one step further as they do elsewhere. Anyone caught profiting or conducting business with aliens is fined period. Yes that includes banks and any other businesses.

The prob with El Buscador is that he assumes they pay taxes, but ignores the 5,000 articles by counties talking about the hundreds of millions to billions they spend on illegal aliens. Apparently the same folks earning $6 an hour pay billions in state and county taxes; which we all know is bloody horsehit. Not to mention, most are paid under the table as it is.

Sales Tax? Sure, even at Cali's 8.25%, after they spent $20K, they would pay $1.6K. What the hell does that pay for? Two street lamps being switched on. Yet if this guy has three kids, then the county or state is forking out ~$27K a year for those kids. What about all of the other services? By the way, food is generally exempt from the sales tax. So this person would have to spend that at target, sears, eating out etc etc.

Since I like graphs and charts, lets look at this.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Booyah!

[Heracles 417]

I did like the tongue-in-cheek in this cartoon.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Booyah!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

So this makes breaking the law, lying and cheating ok? They should be rewarded for this?

No. What it means is that for one, they contribute a significant portion to Social Security and Medicare and two, a black market has been created from Reagan's IRCA of 1986 for counterfeit SS#. The result of that black market is a benefit in terms of added revenue. We need immigration reform that addresses these issues. We need pragmatic solutions.

[Ban Hammer 13,644]

No. What it means is that for one, they contribute a significant portion to Social Security and Medicare and two, a black market has been created from Reagan's IRCA of 1986 for counterfeit SS#. The result of that black market is a benefit in terms of added revenue. We need immigration reform that addresses these issues. We need pragmatic solutions.

do you have a link to back up that in bold?

[Heracles 417]

No. What it means is that for one, they contribute a significant portion to Social Security and Medicare and two, a black market has been created from Reagan's IRCA of 1986 for counterfeit SS#. The result of that black market is a benefit in terms of added revenue. We need immigration reform that addresses these issues. We need pragmatic solutions.

First off, what percentage are paid legally? Nevertheless, come post when either of those two pay for the state and county services they use.

Not to mention, if Americans cannot afford uninsured health care, then how are they have and paying for kids? SS?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

do you have a link to back up that in bold?

Many illegal immigrants pay up at tax time

from AP:

NASHVILLE — The tax system collects its due, even from a class of workers with little likelihood of claiming a refund and no hope of drawing a Social Security check. Illegal immigrants are paying taxes to Uncle Sam, experts agree. Just how much they pay is hard to determine because the federal government doesn't fully tally it. But the latest figures available indicate it will amount to billions of dollars in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes this year. One rough estimate puts the amount of Social Security taxes alone at around $9 billion per year.

Paycheck withholding collects much of the federal tax from illegal workers, just as it does for legal workers.

The Internal Revenue Service doesn't track a worker's immigration status, yet many illegal immigrants fearful of deportation won't risk the government attention that will come from filing a return even if they might qualify for a refund. Economist William Ford of Middle Tennessee State University says there are no firm figures on how many such taxpayers there are.

"The real question is how many of them pay more than they owe. There are undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of people in that situation," Ford said.

But some illegal immigrants choose to file taxes and write a check come April 15, using an alternative to the Social Security number offered by the IRS so it can collect income tax from foreign workers.

"It's a mistake to think that no illegal immigrants pay taxes. They definitely do," said Martha Pantoja, who has been helping Hispanic immigrants this tax season as an IRS-certified volunteer tax preparer for the non-profit Nashville Wealth Building Coalition.

.....

The Social Security Administration estimates that about three-quarters of illegal workers pay taxes that contribute to the overall solvency of Social Security and Medicare.

The agency estimates that for 2005, the last year for which figures are available, about $9 billion in taxes was paid on about $75 billion in wages from people who filed W2 forms with incorrect or mismatched data, which would include illegal immigrants who drew paychecks under fake names and Social Security numbers.

Spokesman Mark Hinkle says Social Security does not know how much of the $9 billion can be attributed to illegal immigrants. The number is certainly not 100%, but a significant portion probably comes from taxes paid by illegal immigrants.

Nine billion dollars sounds like a lot of money, and it is, but it is only about 1.5% of the total $593 billion paid into Social Security in 2005.

The impact on Social Security is significant, though, because most of that money is never claimed by the people who pay it but instead helps cover retirement checks to legal workers.

Federal law prohibits paying Social Security to illegal immigrants, but the administration factors in both legal and illegal immigration when projecting the trust fund's long-term solvency.

This is especially important as the 78 million-member baby boom generation begins to leave the workforce and draw Social Security checks.

"Overall, any type of immigration is a net positive to Social Security. The more people working and paying into the system, the better," Hinkle said. "It does help the system remain solvent."

The Social Security Administration drew from census and Immigration and Customs Enforcement data in 2007 to project the effects of higher and lower immigration patterns.

If net immigration is high at 1.3 million people a year, the SSA's combined trust fund would be exhausted in 2043. But the fund runs out four years earlier if annual net immigration amounts to about half that — 472,500 legal immigrants and 250,000 illegal immigrants.

The Internal Revenue Service doesn't have an estimate of how many illegal immigrants pay income tax.

But one indicator is the 9 million W-2 forms with mismatched names and Social Security numbers it received in 2004. The IRS said the W-2 forms with invalid Social Security numbers reported about $53 billion in wages and about three-fourths of that, $40 billion in wages, had taxes withheld.

http://www.usatoday....antstaxes_N.htm

Edited May 5, 2010 by El Buscador

[Heracles 417]

do you have a link to back up that in bold?

It's inevitable those who use fake SS pay, though realistically what does what they contribute actually pay for?