Democrats Unveil Outline for Amnesty

[one...two...tree 2,762]

trying to minimize a crime by admitting to another...priceless

so do you think those taxes would have been paid by some of the 10% of the US population thats unemployed?

The argument that these illegal immigrants have stolen jobs away from Americans doesn't fly. Without them, our economy would be in worse shape - even for the state of Arizona, their local economies are going to take a serious hit. Should we do nothing and maintain the status quo? No. What we need to do is expand the guest worker program and make it relatively easy for companies to sponsor visas for low skilled labor provided they reasonably demonstrate a need. Instead of our current method where employers must document their workers (which has been a failure and has created an a black market for counterfeit documentation) should provide tax incentives to businesses that would help control the flow of guest workers in areas of high unemployment. But beyond that, unionizing low skilled labor would help to raise the pay of these kinds of jobs to a more livable wage, thereby eliminating an underclass. It's economics.

[Heracles 417]

The argument that these illegal immigrants have stolen jobs away from Americans doesn't fly. Without them, our economy would be in worse shape - even for the state of Arizona, their local economies are going to take a serious hit. Should we do nothing and maintain the status quo? No. What we need to do is expand the guest worker program and make it relatively easy for companies to sponsor visas for low skilled labor provided they reasonably demonstrate a need. Instead of our current method where employers must document their workers (which has been a failure and has created an a black market for counterfeit documentation) should provide tax incentives to businesses that would help control the flow of guest workers in areas of high unemployment. But beyond that, unionizing low skilled labor would help to raise the pay of these kinds of jobs to a more livable wage, thereby eliminating an underclass. It's economics.

Okay so now you know better than every other first world country. Whose economy is doing better Canada/Australia or California? Who has a 10 fold higher quality of life Canada/Australia or California? Who has 100 fold less poverty? Who has lower unemployment? Where do people earn more? etc etc etc

What doesn't fly is your idealist bullshit stance on this issue. You pull out an article about SS and medicare yet completely ignore article after article of counties running into the red and bleeding dry from services provided and used by illegal aliens. When challenged to put numbers on paper, you resort to generic articles, like they prove anything. Once again, how much tax can an illegal alien be paying to the state and county? Does it cover the $10k per year tuition costs of every child, every year? How did they pay for the $15K hospital costs for a child? Why are so many of their children receiving reduced or free lunch? Considering you claim they are paying into the system.

You have no idea what you are talking about on this issue. It's also why you don't engage in debate on it using specific examples; which is usually a sign of someone propelled by ideology and personal opinion rather than facts or reality.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Booyah!

[Susita 175]

Our government is in a jam. They waited way too long to take care of this problem and now we are in a lose/lose situation. We don't have the resources financially or otherwise to round up millions of illegal immigrants and deport them, we just don't. Not to mention, it would devastate the country economically and would damage our relations with other nations. A great number of Americans are also against amnesty and understandably so. But, what do we do? Our law enforcement is spread thin enough as it is, and has to prioritize and deal with the violent crimes first.

I really think it's a conundrum and although many liberals and conservatives have their 'ideas,' to be honest, amnesty would piss off A LOT of people and the republicans rough approach does the same. What the democrats are proposing seems to have some sort of middle ground, paying a hefty fine, taking courses, having a conditional period in which you have to learn english, etc. But for many on the far right, it's too lenient.

I have always said that they should start by punishing businesses that think it's acceptable to hire and exploit illegals. If there's no jobs for them they won't come, or if they're already here they'll go home.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Our government is in a jam. They waited way too long to take care of this problem and now we are in a lose/lose situation. We don't have the resources financially or otherwise to round up millions of illegal immigrants and deport them, we just don't. Not to mention, it would devastate the country economically and would damage our relations with other nations. A great number of Americans are also against amnesty and understandably so. But, what do we do? Our law enforcement is spread thin enough as it is, and has to prioritize and deal with the violent crimes first.

I really think it's a conundrum and although many liberals and conservatives have their 'ideas,' to be honest, amnesty would piss off A LOT of people and the republicans rough approach does the same. What the democrats are proposing seems to have some sort of middle ground, paying a hefty fine, taking courses, having a conditional period in which you have to learn english, etc. But for many on the far right, it's too lenient.

I have always said that they should start by punishing businesses that think it's acceptable to hire and exploit illegals. If there's no jobs for them they won't come, or if they're already here they'll go home.

What makes these threads so ridiculous is because short of deportation, so many here foam at the mouth without really offering any real solutions for the ones who are already here. Sorry, but deportation is off the table. Until they realize that, we're going to have a difficult time coming up with real solutions.

[Heracles 417]

paying a hefty fine

With what money? That $6 an hour job they have. A large portion of children from x status are on free lunch in the area. As in, their parents cannot afford the $2.50 lunch, yet you guys expect us to believe they are going to somehow pay some sort of fine. Not going to happen.

These people need to leave the way they came. They are effectively fugitives and should know that. In a country with 10% unemployment, I don't buy the they are doing jobs Americans will not do, not even for a second. The economy would not be ruined period; rather, the billions and billions spent on providing services to them and their children would be saved. Furthermore, the Americans taking their place would be able to have a shot at improving their quality of life, rather than the status-quo of rotting away in ghettos.

This reasoning many on the left have, yes left, simply does not fly in any other first world country. Yep, not one. Thus their high quality of life. In a typical yet laughable fashion, many here claim to know better than them.

What makes these threads so ridiculous is because short of deportation, so many here foam at the mouth without really offering any real solutions for the ones who are already here. Sorry, but deportation is off the table. Until they realize that, we're going to have a difficult time coming up with real solutions.

Why is it off the table?

Edited May 4, 2010 by Booyah!

[Susita 175]

These people need to leave the way they came.

I really think a lot of them would, if their opportunities here became nonexistent.

Many have already left because of the financial crisis and all of the construction jobs drying up. Day labor isn't as popular as it once was.

[Susita 175]

Why is it off the table?

it's not off the table, it's just really, really hard to do... controversial, and expensive. Sure, some will be deported... but the problem is way too massive.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

it's not off the table, it's just really, really hard to do... controversial, and expensive. Sure, some will be deported... but the problem is way too massive.

I'm sure we can cut federal funding elsewhere for them to fix the mistake they made/do their actual job they were supposed to be doing this whole time.

[Heracles 417]

I really think a lot of them would, if their opportunities here became nonexistent.

Many have already left because of the financial crisis and all of the construction jobs drying up. Day labor isn't as popular as it once was.

It should never have been an option to begin with. By not having day laborers or illegal aliens, I know family members and friends that have built empires doing that very same work. Gezz I wonder why that is, oh that's right. Since that labor pool was not an option, employers have to pay them a decent wage.

Allowing foreign nationals to come and leave as they see fit is not acceptable.

[Heracles 417]

it's not off the table, it's just really, really hard to do... controversial, and expensive. Sure, some will be deported... but the problem is way too massive.

Of course it will be controversial. In 2010 America, it's now cool that a foreigner gets to literally walk in as they see fit. Yet anyone trying to do something about it gets branded the bad guy.

Some people here might have been born yesterday but I surely was not. The reality is any proactive measure will somehow be deemed discriminatory. After all, it's why nothing has been done.

El Buscador here will protest about unions, workers rights and the environment but in the same breath advocate for illegal aliens or guest workers. These are two opposing concepts. No nation in 2010 delivers a high quality of life by allowing their country to be flooded by people, particularly the poor and unskilled. They become a net burden, as such are trickled in. Realistically, so they too get a chance, rather than having to compete with millions of others. Don't even get me started on what large populations do to an environment.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Booyah!

[Pooky 3,786]

Our government is in a jam. They waited way too long to take care of this problem and now we are in a lose/lose situation. We don't have the resources financially or otherwise to round up millions of illegal immigrants and deport them, we just don't. Not to mention, it would devastate the country economically and would damage our relations with other nations. A great number of Americans are also against amnesty and understandably so. But, what do we do? Our law enforcement is spread thin enough as it is, and has to prioritize and deal with the violent crimes first.

I really think it's a conundrum and although many liberals and conservatives have their 'ideas,' to be honest, amnesty would piss off A LOT of people and the republicans rough approach does the same. What the democrats are proposing seems to have some sort of middle ground, paying a hefty fine, taking courses, having a conditional period in which you have to learn english, etc. But for many on the far right, it's too lenient.

I have always said that they should start by punishing businesses that think it's acceptable to hire and exploit illegals. If there's no jobs for them they won't come, or if they're already here they'll go home.

What makes these threads so ridiculous is because short of deportation, so many here foam at the mouth without really offering any real solutions for the ones who are already here. Sorry, but deportation is off the table. Until they realize that, we're going to have a difficult time coming up with real solutions.

What makes these threads ridiculous is the notion that the deportation should be done, for the sake of argument, in a 6 month time period, or so. Of course it's ridiculous to try and relocate between 12 and 20 million illegal immigrants in a short timespan.

So secure the border. Get the Federal authorities to enforce the current legislation. Take away the incentive for these illegals to be here. Crack down on the employers exploiting the illegal immigrants, hard. Any illegals caught up in this part of the process should be deported. A good many will return to their homelands voluntarily. Then the Federal authorities can take years to do the other part of their job. Find the illegal immigrants and deport them.

This country does not need immigration reform. The majority of the American people do not want immigration reform. They want government reform, or, more correctly, they want the government to enforce the laws currently on the statute books. They want the government to put the interests of its own citizens and legal immigrants above those of illegal immigrants.

That's what you don't understand.

[Heracles 417]

It's not rocket science is it... As you said, no one is advocating they go door knocking and round people up, let alone in two weeks. Enforcements need to occur end to end. From customs, to getting a job or even registering a car. There has to be a total squeeze on illegal aliens being able to do anything.

One of the best methods is to severely fine anyone who attempts to profit from them. From contractors to even businesses. Why is nothing being done? because it's quite clear that for some, they simply want amnesty period and will block and label anything otherwise as being racist, discriminatory or against the Constitution. Contrary to the mindset of every other first world country, El Buscador here (for example) thinks they are a benefit to the economy. Little does he realize, so do the slave drivers exploiting them. He also ignore the cost to the taxpayer and the billions funneled out of the US back to the mother country.

Hiring a few greyhound buses is not going to cost the tax payer anywhere near the billions paid out in services.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Booyah!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

What makes these threads ridiculous is the notion that the deportation should be done, for the sake of argument, in a 6 month time period, or so. Of course it's ridiculous to try and relocate between 12 and 20 million illegal immigrants in a short timespan.

So secure the border. Get the Federal authorities to enforce the current legislation. Take away the incentive for these illegals to be here. Crack down on the employers exploiting the illegal immigrants, hard. Any illegals caught up in this part of the process should be deported. A good many will return to their homelands voluntarily. Then the Federal authorities can take years to do the other part of their job. Find the illegal immigrants and deport them.

This country does not need immigration reform. The majority of the American people do not want immigration reform. They want government reform, or, more correctly, they want the government to enforce the laws currently on the statute books. They want the government to put the interests of its own citizens and legal immigrants above those of illegal immigrants.

That's what you don't understand.

Deportation would be a logistical nightmare, cost billions of dollars, clog up the courts and could take years. It is off the table. No one in Washington is suggesting that as a solution as it is utterly ridiculous.

As for your suggestions - they don't address the issue of what to do about the one who are already and have been here. We have to look at pragmatic solutions for those who are here.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Of course it will be controversial. In 2010 America, it's now cool that a foreigner gets to literally walk in as they see fit. Yet anyone trying to do something about it gets branded the bad guy.

Some people here might have been born yesterday but I surely was not. The reality is any proactive measure will somehow be deemed discriminatory. After all, it's why nothing has been done.

El Buscador here will protest about unions, workers rights and the environment but in the same breath advocate for illegal aliens or guest workers. These are two opposing concepts. No nation in 2010 delivers a high quality of life by allowing their country to be flooded by people, particularly the poor and unskilled. They become a net burden, as such are trickled in. Realistically, so they too get a chance, rather than having to compete with millions of others. Don't even get me started on what large populations do to an environment.

Here is somebody you can be truly proud of:

http://www.ksbw.com/...il.html?taf=mty

You are worried about all illegal immigrants, fail to see where your rhetoric leads, fail to see the light which your constant spew sheds upon yourself, and fail completely to find any room for figuring out who needs to go, and who might be able to stay under any conditions. In short, you and the local VJ anti-illegal cadre are roughly equivalent to the mentality of the idiot in the article linked above.

The folks who cause the most trouble are the gangsters, fueled by the drug trade. But who buys the drugs? Unless and until you recognize the problem is not lost jobs, your arguments will always be seen in the light of anti-Hispanic ramblings.

Edited May 5, 2010 by ready4ONE

[peejay 327]

Deportation would be a logistical nightmare, cost billions of dollars, clog up the courts and could take years. It is off the table. No one in Washington is suggesting that as a solution as it is utterly ridiculous.

As for your suggestions - they don't address the issue of what to do about the one who are already and have been here. We have to look at pragmatic solutions for those who are here.

Why do you think it is either mass deportation or mass amnesty? BOTH would be an unmitigated nightmare that would cost billions. Make E-Verify and Social Security no-match mandatory to thin the herd. Use deportation only when needed and appropriate. The rest will take care of itself when illegal aliens can no longer work illegally with impunity. They will leave and the others won't come when they are shown through decisive action that they are not welcome. Repeated amnesties have proven to be a repeated failure, but a lazy cowardly way out for the political classes. Unfortunately for the politicians, after 7 previous illegal alien amnesties the American people have wised up to that charade.