New Arizona Law: Police can ask you about Immigration status

[Tom&Steffi 0]

Since the new Arizona law passed, my husband and I have heard a lot of discussion on this topic.

I think the law is fine, just file your paperwork like we all here are doing

I really wonder what conditions can make a person leave their home country with nothing and start a new *illegal* life somewhere else ...

What do you think??

[justashooter 430]

Since the new Arizona law passed, my husband and I have heard a lot of discussion on this topic.

I think the law is fine, just file your paperwork like we all here are doing

I really wonder what conditions can make a person leave their home country with nothing and start a new *illegal* life somewhere else ...

What do you think??

dirt poor poverty and lies being told to them of how easy it is to get along in USA, and coming from a country where there is no "rule of law" explains most of it.

[Bobby+Umit 161]

They are just enforcing a Federal law that is on the books anyway (if your a legal immigrant/visitor, your suppose to have your papers on your person).

I think it's a good law.

Poverty or stories on the "good life in America" is what probably draws people here.

I have no issue with legal immigration, I have issues with illegal immigration.

Either obey the law or go home.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

I really wonder what conditions can make a person leave their home country with nothing and start a new *illegal* life somewhere else ...

What do you think??

Hunger? A starving wife and child? Omnipresent corruption and crime with drugs and kidnappings on a daily basis, perhaps?

[belinda63 3,038]

Bob you forgot the beheading for being the wrong religion or showing too much skin. How about making in a month here what you would make in a year in your home country? Or a total lack of clean water or food? Or an even better one, what about having to live in constant fear of your home being bombed or being shot by "friendly" invaders?

There are many reasons people come to the US, or Europe, or any other country, "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence".

Why do they do it illegally? Because there is no way for them to do it legally. If we opened our borders the country would collapse from the sheer weight of all the new immigrants. California would sink into the ocean and Texas might decide to become a Republic again.

Building fences and having cameras is not working. Neither is arresting them, putting them on a bus or plane and sending them home, then re-arresting them a few months later when they make their way back into the country is obviously not working. So the better question would be what can we do to make illegal immigration not worth the time and effort?

[Boiler 45,522]

What Arizona has done is a start, they missed out coming down hard on the employers.

All the people I have met came here to make a bit of money and go home. Some ended up staying longer than they thought.

[HeatDeath 430]

Although Salt Lake City is known as a "sanctuary city", where the police have been ordered not to poke into immigration status, I've always proceeded on the assumption that the police could do exactly what the Arizona law requires them to do: ask for my green card. The material that USCIS sent me with my green card made it perfectly clear that my immigration status was subject to inspection by any civil authority, and I don't see how any reasonable person could claim that that isn't or shouldn't be the case.

The two issues raised by opponents to this law are the specters of implied racism against Hispanics, and violations of the civil liberties of US citizens. It is important to note that the wording of the law says that inquiry into immigration status may occur if the officer "has reason to believe that the person has immigrated illegally."

To the first issue: While I am cognizant of the serious problems with racial profiling, the opponents of this law are misusing racial profiling as a bogeyman. Racial profiling is counterproductive as a security policy because it generates a huge number of false positives. While the vast majority of non-domestic terrorists in the US are Muslim, the vast vast majority of Muslims are non-terrorists. As such, any security policy that singles out Muslims for extra screening will generate a huge number of false positives, and violate the civil rights of those Muslims for no good reason.

However, this dynamic is not at work in the immigration issue. While a very large majority of Hispanics in the US are not illegal immigrants (and as a consequence, profiling on race alone would be counterproductive and arguably evil), the vast majority of people who are Hispanic AND non-English speaking AND engaged in day labour AND unable to produce a plausible green card or social security card - the vast majority of people who meet ALL of these characteristics ARE illegal immigrants. The intersection of those four characteristics, while not in themselves proving illegal immigration, do provide probable cause to suspect illegal immigration, and justify further investigation. The fact that racial ethnicity is one of those characteristics does not make this an instance of racial profiling, no matter how rhetorically convenient it is to opponents of this law to yell "Racist!" at its supporters.

To the second issue: American citizens are not required to carry any sort of ID. This is a wonderful, honorable part of the American legal tradition, and must be vigorously defended. But it does create an apparent hole in any serious attempt at immigration enforcement. All any one, legal or illegal, has to do to evade this law is apparently to say "Yes, I am an American citizen", and their lack of ID is no longer valid, or even contributory evidence of illegal immigration status.

At this point an illegal immigrant has fallen into a serious trap, one I believe was built into this law by design. They have added to the relatively minor crime of visa overstay (or even entry without inspection) the far more serious crime of willful misrepresentation as a US citizen. If subsequent investigation shows this person to be an illegal immigrant, this misrepresentation charge can be used to significantly increase their punishment or fine. A similar dynamic exists in the immigration process itself. Several forms ask if the intending immigrant has committed any crimes for which they have not been arrested or charged. The point of this question is not to capture any criminals ingenuous enough to answer "Yes" - it is to provide the opportunity for an extra offense - that of lying on an immigration form - and therefore the possibility of extra punishment - in the event that undisclosed crimes are discovered in the future. I therefore do not believe that this law, executed properly, represents a serious attack on the civil rights of legitimate US citizens. They have a simple, legal, and honest out which should immediately cut off any increased scrutiny by law enforcement, while causing illegal immigrants to only increase the precariousness of their already dangerous legal position.

[TBoneTX 45,303]

And "sic transit" any argument on the Off-Topic threads on this subject. HeatDeath for VJ Member of the Year, on the basis of consummate literacy & clear thinking, si man.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

All any one, legal or illegal, has to do to evade this law is apparently to say "Yes, I am an American citizen", and their lack of ID is no longer valid, or even contributory evidence of illegal immigration status.

At this point an illegal immigrant has fallen into a serious trap, one I believe was built into this law by design. They have added to the relatively minor crime of visa overstay (or even entry without inspection) the far more serious crime of willful misrepresentation as a US citizen. If subsequent investigation shows this person to be an illegal immigrant, this misrepresentation charge can be used to significantly increase their punishment or fine. A similar dynamic exists in the immigration process itself. Several forms ask if the intending immigrant has committed any crimes for which they have not been arrested or charged. The point of this question is not to capture any criminals ingenuous enough to answer "Yes" - it is to provide the opportunity for an extra offense - that of lying on an immigration form - and therefore the possibility of extra punishment - in the event that undisclosed crimes are discovered in the future. I therefore do not believe that this law, executed properly, represents a serious attack on the civil rights of legitimate US citizens. They have a simple, legal, and honest out which should immediately cut off any increased scrutiny by law enforcement, while causing illegal immigrants to only increase the precariousness of their already dangerous legal position.

Simply claiming to be a US citizen won't be sufficient to evade the law. There is no provision in the law for the law enforcement officer to make a determination about your lawful presence using his own judgment. He is compelled to confirm your lawful presence with federal authorities. If you aren't carrying any identification then the first step is going to be an attempt to confirm your identity.

The law previously required the officer to have "lawful contact", in addition to reasonable suspicion that you might not have lawful presence, before they were compelled to verify your lawful presence. Theoretically, this could mean interviewing you as a witness at the scene of a crime. There was great fear that this would mean illegal aliens would no longer cooperate with investigations. The law was revised to now require a "lawful stop", which means the officer now must have probable cause to believe you were involved in an infraction or crime. With probable cause, they can hold you as long as necessary to try to confirm your identity.

I don't see this as any more of a "trap" than perjury would be; i.e., your only chance of avoiding punishment for a crime is to lie about having committed it. The crime of illegal entry has already been committed. Claiming to be US citizen in order to avoid being prosecuted for the illegal entry is a willful act, just as perjury is a willful act. The illegal alien could easily avoid the additional penalty by simply NOT claiming to be a US citizen, and telling the truth. I also don't think this was intentionally crafted into the Arizona law. Illegal entry and falsely claiming to be a US citizen for the purpose of evading immigration law are already federal crimes, and there are thousands of aliens who have been banned from the US for having committed both. The Arizona law only makes it possible for a state or local law enforcement officer to make the initial arrest, rather than CBP or ICE.

Personally, I would not consider leaving my house without carrying some form of valid identification. I realize it's not required except under certain circumstances, such as driving my car. However, I don't relish the idea of sitting in a squad car for 20 minutes while a police officer tries to determine who I am so that he can write me a ticket for jaywalking or smoking a cigarette in the wrong place.