have to complain

[~ameriptian~ 54]

Well I think both sides are in the wrong in a way...

The father should not let/force his daughter to wear the hijab that early.. It should only happen when SHE CHOOSES to and when she reaches the age of puberty! I know certain cases of girls who wore (were forced to wear) the hijab very early and ended up hating it and feeling forced to do it cause it never came by choice.

The teacher HAS TO get back to the parents before she lets the girl take her scarf off. It should not be her call to tell the child what to do. And her behavior of letting the girl hide behind her until she wears the scarf before the father sees her is totally wrong...simply because it teaches the little girl double-standards... However, I totally sympathize with her point of view..the girl should live as a CHILD not as a grown-up... Hijab is a religious duty and responsibility after all.

The father's logic of letting the girl wear the hijab that early purely comes out of culture and has nothing to do with Islam. The rules are clear about when and how a WOMAN should wear the hijab.

I've been wearing the hijab for 8 years myself and it was totally my choice to wear it, I was never forced to do it.

I remember begging my mom in my first grade to wear it to school even for once, she refused strongly and then one day she let me wear it just to try.. I took it off at the middle of the day cause I changed my mind and wanted to have a hair-do! When I came back home that day she laughed and said "I knew you would do that, that's why I say it's not the right time to wear it yet."... Now that we have a 6-year old girl that keeps asking to wear the headscarf 'like mommy', I say the same thing..."It's not the right time to wear it yet...when you are a grown-up, and if you CHOOSE to wear it, you will wear it."

Aya

[LaL 418]

I think you put it very well Aya. I'm just coming from the POV that regardless of the father's requirement (so it seems) for his 6 year old to wear one, what is the teacher's responsibility in this when the child comes to him/her to remove it? Does the school actually have responsibility to uphold special circumstances like this (outside of the regular acceptble dress code) and at what point is the teacher undermining vs. not taking a stance in it all? I think it's a very interesting conundrum.

From my honest opinion the teacher should tell her to keep it on unless otherwise allowed. End of story - no grey area, no imposition, etc. Regardless, sounds like a real sit down conference is needed.

Edited May 1, 2010 by LaL

[MrsAmera 41]

Wait I think this is looked at the wrong way. If I had a 6 year old girl, who went to school with a hijab and asked her teacher if she could take it off...Mrs. so and so is it ok if I take my scarf off." and my response would be "Sure honey" without any malice intended. It is not the teachers job to enforce parents home rules. How would the teacher even know? She probably has 20 other 6 year olds running around to worry about let alone to pre-occupy herself with worrying about one little girl who happens to wear something on her head. The teacher is not "making the girl disobey her father" the child asked her teacher if she could remove it, the teacher said yes. If she says no then there would be parents all up in her face for imposing religious practices in school. She's sort of stuck either way.

[~ameriptian~ 54]

Wait I think this is looked at the wrong way. If I had a 6 year old girl, who went to school with a hijab and asked her teacher if she could take it off...Mrs. so and so is it ok if I take my scarf off." and my response would be "Sure honey" without any malice intended. It is not the teachers job to enforce parents home rules. How would the teacher even know? She probably has 20 other 6 year olds running around to worry about let alone to pre-occupy herself with worrying about one little girl who happens to wear something on her head. The teacher is not "making the girl disobey her father" the child asked her teacher if she could remove it, the teacher said yes. If she says no then there would be parents all up in her face for imposing religious practices in school. She's sort of stuck either way.

My response would be the same as well. I would actually have a meeting with the parents immediately to let the child live AS A CHILD should be. However, Venus said in a post in this thread that the teacher hid the girl behind her back until she wears her scarf. Having 20 other 6-year olds in the classroom is no excuse not to pay attention to each and every child of them and be well aware of their characters and their classroom problems at that young age.

Aya

[Vanessa1 7]

I have been a teacher for many years and legally the teacher CANNOT get involved. It is not the teacher's choice and she certainly cannot enforce the hijab on anyone. We're talking about separation of church and state here, people. Teachers are paid by taxpayer monies and as such, they need stay as far away from issues such as these as possible, in the public school system. If the teacher were to enforce the hijab they could get into serious legal trouble, could face disciplinary action, and could potentially be fired and have his or her license revoked. This is akin to forcing a student to take part in prayer during the moment of silence, just as an example. We don't even force the kids to say the Pledge of Allegiance and would be in big trouble for that as well. We don't have Christmas trees anymore in schools and we have "Winter Break" so you can see that it is not the teacher's place to enforce religion.

It is not a matter of being disrespectful and it certainly is not a teacher saying they are encouraging a girl to disobey her father. This is a matter of what is and is not allowed in public schools. It is the family's responsibility to enforce values at home. How could a teacher possibly enforce all of the varied values for each student in their classroom? Now, the father has some choices. For example, he could call and ask the teacher if the hijab had been worn that day, although this might make teachers feel uncomfortable, it is less of a legal issue because the parent is simply asking for information on their own child. The other option would be to send his daughter to a specialized school. For example, the mosque here has an Islamic school where the students earn their core credits and also have courses in Islam and Arabic. But I can tell you that even in that school children from all religions are welcomed and hijab is not forced there either. But maybe the first grader is uncomfortable being one of a few in hijab...you just don't know why. It would behoove the father to talk to his daughter to find the reasons rather than forcing something on her or blame the teacher for not breaking the law. That's a guaranteed path toward rebellion. Open communication between father and daughter is what is needed here, rather than forced obedience. Again, the teacher is not in the equation. Their job is to educate and that is all.

[sandinista! 1,816]

I have been a teacher for many years and legally the teacher CANNOT get involved. It is not the teacher's choice and she certainly cannot enforce the hijab on anyone. We're talking about separation of church and state here, people. Teachers are paid by taxpayer monies and as such, they need stay as far away from issues such as these as possible, in the public school system. If the teacher were to enforce the hijab they could get into serious legal trouble, could face disciplinary action, and could potentially be fired and have his or her license revoked. This is akin to forcing a student to take part in prayer during the moment of silence, just as an example. We don't even force the kids to say the Pledge of Allegiance and would be in big trouble for that as well. We don't have Christmas trees anymore in schools and we have "Winter Break" so you can see that it is not the teacher's place to enforce religion.

It is not a matter of being disrespectful and it certainly is not a teacher saying they are encouraging a girl to disobey her father. This is a matter of what is and is not allowed in public schools. It is the family's responsibility to enforce values at home. How could a teacher possibly enforce all of the varied values for each student in their classroom? Now, the father has some choices. For example, he could call and ask the teacher if the hijab had been worn that day, although this might make teachers feel uncomfortable, it is less of a legal issue because the parent is simply asking for information on their own child. The other option would be to send his daughter to a specialized school. For example, the mosque here has an Islamic school where the students earn their core credits and also have courses in Islam and Arabic. But I can tell you that even in that school children from all religions are welcomed and hijab is not forced there either. But maybe the first grader is uncomfortable being one of a few in hijab...you just don't know why. It would behoove the father to talk to his daughter to find the reasons rather than forcing something on her or blame the teacher for not breaking the law. That's a guaranteed path toward rebellion. Open communication between father and daughter is what is needed here, rather than forced obedience. Again, the teacher is not in the equation. Their job is to educate and that is all.

i think you made a very important point here, and no amount of blathering on to said teacher or principal about the subjective religious importance of a 6 yr old keeping a scarf on changes that. though it's very disappointing to read how incompetently this teacher is handling the issue regardless. she should be well aware of what her legal limits are in a situation like this, and should have kept the parents of this child apprised of them from the very beginning, instead of all of the stupid bumbling around she's done. really, really incompetent.

[venusfire503 54]

The thing is, the teacher IS telling the child to disobey her father (whether or not any of us agree with the father), and is also helping the child to hide that fact from her father. If you met her, you might feel differently. This is not a teacher who doesn't understand, or doesn't know. The teacher is purposely helping the child lie and deceive. If she doesn't want to be involved, she should tell the child to talk with her father about it - not tell her to do what she wants, and then cover it up. It would be different if the girl just took it off on her own - but she asks the teacher, who tells her to take it off (while knowing it's against the father's wishes).

There are other students there who wear hijab, so it's not like she's the only one, or is looked at like she's different. It's an area where most people don't exactly have extra money for special schools, though, so a private school might not be an option for the family.

No matter how anyone feels about it, I strongly object to teachers - or other adults - who encourage children to disobey their parents.

venusfire

[sandinista! 1,816]

i don't think anyone here condones teachers encouraging children to disobey parents either. and the fact that there are other students around who wear scarves is neither here nor there. it has nothing to do with any part of this issue. this teacher sounds like a complete moron though. my objection to a public school teacher enforcing any religious based facet of life on any of their students is just as strong as my objection to any teacher encouraging a child to disobey their parent. this school needs to take action sooner rather than later, though i disagree with what i think the op considers to be the most pressing issue here.

[Vanessa1 7]

I agree that this is a bad situation that is going to blow up if the school's principal doesn't take some action. There should be a mediated meeting with administration, the family, and the teacher because there are several inappropriate things happening in this situation and the two parties do not seem to be communicating effectively. But, again, I also think that if it has not already happened the parents of this little girl need to have an open talk with her to find out what the issues are. She's six and if she's hiding behind her teacher and repeatedly asking if she can take off her scarf then she's clearly not comfortable with it for some reason and ignoring this would be a mistake, in my opinion. Yes, she's six and yes she should listen to her parents, but she is also an individual who has the right to be heard. Usually parents take this into account as well and hopefully these parents will also, if they have not already done so. Again, this is not the place of the school but it is the place of the family.

[And_Sam 44]

This doesn't really have anything to do with the subject, but I wanted to share this with you.

My niece started pre-school this year. On the first day of school, she had to go to the restroom. She went in there and stayed for quite a while. Her teacher got worried about her so she knocked on the door and asked her if she was ok, or did she need help. My niece came out of the rest room with her shirt and shorts set on, but carrying her undies. The teacher asked her if she was ok, and she said yes, but her mommy told her that if she didn't want to wear her undies that she didn't have to.

This made the teacher laugh but she told her ok, to put them in her bookbag since she had shorts on anyways.

When my sister got to the school to pick her up, the teacher made sure to tell her what my niece had done and why. Of course my sister told the teacher that she never had said that to her daughter. Come to find out, my niece used the restroom and being a kid, she completely took off her undies and shorts and couldn't figure out how to put them back on!!

[Der Bücherwurm 1]

Personally, I think the OP is in the wrong for sticking her nose in other people's business. Nobody likes a busybody.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Well I think both sides are in the wrong in a way...

The father should not let/force his daughter to wear the hijab that early.. It should only happen when SHE CHOOSES to and when she reaches the age of puberty! I know certain cases of girls who wore (were forced to wear) the hijab very early and ended up hating it and feeling forced to do it cause it never came by choice.

The teacher HAS TO get back to the parents before she lets the girl take her scarf off. It should not be her call to tell the child what to do. And her behavior of letting the girl hide behind her until she wears the scarf before the father sees her is totally wrong...simply because it teaches the little girl double-standards... However, I totally sympathize with her point of view..the girl should live as a CHILD not as a grown-up... Hijab is a religious duty and responsibility after all.

The father's logic of letting the girl wear the hijab that early purely comes out of culture and has nothing to do with Islam. The rules are clear about when and how a WOMAN should wear the hijab.

I've been wearing the hijab for 8 years myself and it was totally my choice to wear it, I was never forced to do it.

I remember begging my mom in my first grade to wear it to school even for once, she refused strongly and then one day she let me wear it just to try.. I took it off at the middle of the day cause I changed my mind and wanted to have a hair-do! When I came back home that day she laughed and said "I knew you would do that, that's why I say it's not the right time to wear it yet."... Now that we have a 6-year old girl that keeps asking to wear the headscarf 'like mommy', I say the same thing..."It's not the right time to wear it yet...when you are a grown-up, and if you CHOOSE to wear it, you will wear it."

Aya

Wow. Speaking as a USC man who knows nothing about Islam, and very little about teaching young kids, I think this all well said. Thanks for the explanation and easy to understand example.

[Staashi 371]

Personally, I think the OP is in the wrong for sticking her nose in other people's business. Nobody likes a busybody.

This is the best advice. If it's not your problem...it's not your problem.

[~ameriptian~ 54]

Wow. Speaking as a USC man who knows nothing about Islam, and very little about teaching young kids, I think this all well said. Thanks for the explanation and easy to understand example.

You are welcome!

Aya

[Nothing1234 2]

Bravo Aya.

and Stashi too...This is the best advice. If it's not your problem...it's not your problem.

We need to start paying teachers better money. There is a whole lotta crapola daily they are subjected too....its sad that we think so minimial of their role in our childrens lives. And if we pay poorly as a country as a whole...you get what you pay for in my opinion.

Well I think both sides are in the wrong in a way...

The father should not let/force his daughter to wear the hijab that early.. It should only happen when SHE CHOOSES to and when she reaches the age of puberty! I know certain cases of girls who wore (were forced to wear) the hijab very early and ended up hating it and feeling forced to do it cause it never came by choice.

The teacher HAS TO get back to the parents before she lets the girl take her scarf off. It should not be her call to tell the child what to do. And her behavior of letting the girl hide behind her until she wears the scarf before the father sees her is totally wrong...simply because it teaches the little girl double-standards... However, I totally sympathize with her point of view..the girl should live as a CHILD not as a grown-up... Hijab is a religious duty and responsibility after all.

The father's logic of letting the girl wear the hijab that early purely comes out of culture and has nothing to do with Islam. The rules are clear about when and how a WOMAN should wear the hijab.

I've been wearing the hijab for 8 years myself and it was totally my choice to wear it, I was never forced to do it.

I remember begging my mom in my first grade to wear it to school even for once, she refused strongly and then one day she let me wear it just to try.. I took it off at the middle of the day cause I changed my mind and wanted to have a hair-do! When I came back home that day she laughed and said "I knew you would do that, that's why I say it's not the right time to wear it yet."... Now that we have a 6-year old girl that keeps asking to wear the headscarf 'like mommy', I say the same thing..."It's not the right time to wear it yet...when you are a grown-up, and if you CHOOSE to wear it, you will wear it."

Aya